Quote: This doesn't answer why attrocities are done in his name, and reversing it to say or even imply that because good is done in his name the attrocities are either paid for or erased is absurd.
Hank said that if someone argues that Christianity is false, because of the bad, then you could turn it around on them and say it is true because of the good. So yes, that argument is absurd. But then, the first one would have to be absurd too, right? That's the point he's trying to make. Read the Matthew quote again. "'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' You see? These people think they were doing God's work. But the next part, God replies, "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!'" This shows that God was angry with them for what they did. So why are atrocities committed in God's name? Because certain men who believe in Him, are misled to do wrong, and think that killing nonbelievers are what God wants. But when it comes time for Judgement, these people discover that God is not happy with their actions. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 13 Nov 2008 20:51 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers
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Quote: Is it just OK by Hank to make exceptions or is it actually OK with God too? In other words, who determines what a valid higher moral standing is enough to allow lying to not be called immoral? What basis is this judgment made on and who is fit to make it?
Hank says that what Rahab had done would not be considered lying. Just like with murder. Thou shalt not kill actually translates to thou shalt not murder. And self-defense and capital punishment are not murder. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 13 Nov 2008 21:00
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Quote: if I had committed a crime in your name would you consider it fair that everyone blame you if you had no idea who I was.
I don't understand why fairness would have anything to do with what we're talking about here.
Quote: Everyone always wants to claim the Crusades as an example, but do you got anymore than that?
Inquisition, KKK, Salem witch trials and Hitler's regime(people always want to pass him off as an atheist-he used Christianity, whether he himself was a believer or not-this counts as something done in Christ's name)
Quote: If there is no life after death, how does a person live life without always being depressed?
This was about evidence of life after death, which nobody has any of. In the meantime, for that 'If I had committed a crime...' line and this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 13 Nov 2008 21:08
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Quote: I don't understand why fairness would have anything to do with what we're talking about here.
What I'm trying to say is you can't blame Christianity for everything that could be done under the name of Christ no more than you could be blamed for everything somebody might do under your name.
See anybody can claim to be a Christian. That doesn't make them one.
What Hitler thought about God.
KKK took the name of God, but that doesn't mean God supported them. How many men died in the name of God to end slavery? Why don't you mention them? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 13 Nov 2008 21:09
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Hey Pak aren't you forgetting someone? __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 13 Nov 2008 21:09
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Quote: That's the point he's trying to make.
Hank doesn't answer the question-he tries to invalidate the question.
Quote: But when it comes time for Judgement, these people discover that God is not happy with their actions.
Shouldn't an all knowing God have left clearer instructions that everyone could follow if they were so important?
Shouldn't a loving God have intervened?
Quote: But when it comes time for Judgement, these people discover that God is not happy with their actions.
But God allows them to happen anyway? He doesn't care, can't fix it or doesn't exist-that's what I get from it.
Quote: Hank says that what Rahab had done would not be considered lying.
Ok. But that doesn't address what I said either.
What good is a commandment with loopholes?
What measures are used that mark that loophole as allowable?
Who is fit to make that measurement? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 13 Nov 2008 21:19
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Quote: Hank doesn't answer the question-he tries to invalidate the question.
In that part, he doesn't answer the question, but the Matthew quote does.
Quote: Shouldn't an all knowing God have left clearer instructions that everyone could follow if they were so important?
He made it plenty clear to me. I know that murder is a sin.
Quote: Shouldn't a loving God have intervened?
I thought you said you weren't interested in the "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" question.
Quote: Ok. But that doesn't address what I said either.
Yeah it does. If it wasn't lying at all, then its not an exception right. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 13 Nov 2008 21:40
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Tell ya what.
I said in the beginning of this little diversion that you would find satisfaction with some things because of your belief to begin with that I wouldn't for my lack of that same belief.
Hank didn't answer a thing for me, and your explanations aren't improving on that.
--------------------------------------------
I'll address a few things here anyway.
Quote: he doesn't answer the question, but the Matthew quote does.
He was supposed to answer it, according to you originally. For future reference, if someone is not a Christian, a biblical quote doesn't do anything for them as proof, or inspiration or evidence of any sort.
Quote: I thought you said you weren't interested in the "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" question.
So, if I read that right, He lets it go on just to punish people over. I asked if a loving God should have intervened, which I would assume would be a yes, and for your lack of an answer, I still have to assume is a yes. By this, that version of God is a monster, which is why he lets bad things happen-he enjoys the pain and suffering twofold.
Quote: Yeah it does. If it wasn't lying at all, then its not an exception right.
Now it stops being a lie altogether?
You absolutely did not answer my questions. Especially with stupidity where a nontruth stops being a lie for someone's convenience.
Quote: What good is a commandment with loopholes?
What measures are used that mark that loophole as allowable?
Who is fit to make that measurement?
If you can't answer these, don't bother responding to anything here at all. We'd have nothing else to discuss. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
They've created blacklists for those that supported prop 8. They actually created a blacklist! Creepy!
And to hear this crap about losing all their rights. That's bull. They have the right to vote, buy and sell property, speak, listen to music, whatever. They can't get married and they make it sound like they lost every right known to man. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 13 Nov 2008 22:11
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Steve, be sure to thank Tim for switching the subject back when you have the chance.
Quote: They can't get married and they make it sound like they lost every right known to man.
They had the right one day, and it was gone the next. That was the only right highlighted-the rest you mention were not involved here so your argument kinda fizzles out.
As for the 'blacklist': why shouldn't those people who contributed be made public? I know you don't think of prop 8 as discrimination, but I promise you, it most certainly is. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 14 Nov 2008 02:43
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Why because it ain't nobody's business. This is a form of McCarthyism. Hollywood they get mad when there are blacklists, and then they make more, or at least Californians make more.
It's hypocrisy. If blacklists were wrong back in the 50's. Then they are wrong now.
I'm telling you if people are going to start posting names or addresses or junk like that on hate sites then I'm not so sure it's worth it to even get in to politics anymore. This is dangerous. People lose jobs over politics because of crap like that, and the next step is people getting attacked in their own homes over this mess. It's a form of terrorism. They lost at the voting booth. They need to deal with it. Right now they are acting like a bunch of thugs. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 14 Nov 2008 02:56
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Quote: Why because it ain't nobody's business.
Supposedly, neither is what happens in other people's bedrooms.
A marriage shouldn't be anyone's business either-especially the government's.
Quote: It's a form of terrorism.
lol...they're all communists and hippies too I take it?
Quote: They lost at the voting booth. They need to deal with it.
They are dealing with it, you may not like how, but they are dealing with it. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 14 Nov 2008 04:48
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Ha, sorry. I WAS trying to instigate.
Posted: 14 Nov 2008 11:41
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Thought this belonged here.
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 14 Nov 2008 16:44
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Quote: They are dealing with it, you may not like how, but they are dealing with it.
If this is your opinion you aren't even worth debating. If we as a society condone personal attacks of this nature because we don't agree with a person's vote then we will have a society where no one will be able to speak their minds without fear of attack.
Is that the kind of America you want? Would you like it if somebody posted your name maybe even your address on a website asking for retribution of some sort by some group that doesn't like your politics?
In the 50's liberals had a time with the blacklist in Hollywood now they turn around and use the same method they despised and preached against all these years.
This has a lot larger implications than just this one particular case.
Politics should not go outside the barrier of a war of words and ideas. Bullying private citizens should not be part of any political strategy. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 14 Nov 2008 20:56 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers
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Quote: He was supposed to answer it, according to you originally.
Hank answered by reciting the Matthew quote. Like I said, he uses evidence from the Bible to support his position. But so what? It doesn't matter who answered it, only that the question was answered.
Quote: For future reference, if someone is not a Christian, a biblical quote doesn't do anything for them as proof, or inspiration or evidence of any sort.
How can you say its not proof? We are debating God, rather you believe he is real or not, right? So using quotes from His book to show what He does and what He says is only reasonable.
Quote: It would appear that there are occasions when deception is ethically permissible. But note well: not all falsehoods are lies. A lie is an intentional falsehood which violates someone’s right to know the truth. But there are cases in which people forfeit their right to know the truth. The question, therefore, is not whether it is ever morally permissible to lie. The question is, “What is a lie?” A lie is the intentional declaration or communication of a falsehood designed to deceive someone who has a moral and legal right to know the truth. A lie is the telling of an untruth to someone to whom you are morally and legally obligated to speak the truth.
Quote: I asked if a loving God should have intervened, which I would assume would be a yes, and for your lack of an answer, I still have to assume is a yes. By this, that version of God is a monster, which is why he lets bad things happen-he enjoys the pain and suffering twofold.
I responded the way I did because you were asking a question that you previously didn't want answered. I suppose you've changed your mind, so I'll post the answer shortly.
Quote: What good is a commandment with loopholes?
There are no loopholes. I've explained that already with the "thou shalt not kill" commandment. (If what I said wasn't clear enough, just say so and I'll try it again.) As for lying part, just read the paragraph that I posted. If based on the criteria above, what you tell someone is not a lie, then no exceptions need to be made in terms of the Ten Commandments.
Quote: What measures are used that mark that loophole as allowable?
Since I already established that there are no loopholes, you may try to apply this question to the paragraph from that website that I posted. You can know if that person has the right to know the truth based on examples from the Bible, and the Ten Commandments. Rape and murder are sins, so if some crook breaks into your house to do these things to your family you have a right to tell an untruth because you know what this man is going to do is wrong.
Quote: Who is fit to make that measurement?
You are the one making the decision here. God can't make it for you. You have to trust in his judgement. But these measurements--the differences between right and wrong, which are what they all boil down to, were determined by God. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 14 Nov 2008 21:55
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One at a time here.
Tim,
Quote: If we as a society condone personal attacks of this nature
How is it an attack to point out what someone has actually done?
Quote: Bullying private citizens should not be part of any political strategy.
How are they supposedly being bullied?
Quote: we will have a society where no one will be able to speak their minds without fear of attack.
The problem wasn't with someone speaking their mind. Nothing quite so brave as that. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 14 Nov 2008 22:10
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Steve,
Quote: he uses evidence from the Bible to support his position. But so what? It doesn't matter who answered it, only that the question was answered.
You said Hank answers these questions, which he didn't particularly here in this case. That quote didn't answer the question either.
Quote: So using quotes from His book to show what He does and what He says is only reasonable.
It is a type of reasoning indeed-faulty.
You're using the Bible to prove what's in the Bible is true.
Look up circular logic when you have the chance.
Quote: That's what Hank said.
Than Hank is full of it himself. It doesn't stop being a lie for a good enough reason(whatever Hank thinks a good reason might be). What people does Hank think we don't have a 'moral obligation' to?
Quote: If based on the criteria above, what you tell someone is not a lie, then no exceptions need to be made in terms of the Ten Commandments.
If I go by that quote above, I can do anything I want to people I have no 'moral or legal obligation' to. That stupid stupid logic creates a loophole in what's supposed to be immutable law. If I were a Christian, I would be very careful of exactly how much advice I took from Hank.
Quote: God can't make it for you. You have to trust in his judgement.
Has nothing to do with what I asked but......what? He can't make the decision for me but I have to trust in his judgment? What? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 15 Nov 2008 00:24
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Quote: How is it an attack to point out what someone has actually done?
It's a blacklist. You know like back in the McCarthy days. Back then people couldn't work if they showed up on one.
According to the yahoo news report I posted at least one person lost their job already due to this modern blacklist.
A man shouldn't lose his job over his politics. Two, obviously if you are listing names like that it ain't to send flowers. I appreciate your opinions but if you don't see how this could be bad then I just don't know about you dude. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 15 Nov 2008 02:29 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers
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Quote: Than Hank is full of it himself. It doesn't stop being a lie for a good enough reason(whatever Hank thinks a good reason might be). What people does Hank think we don't have a 'moral obligation' to?
A good reason Pak would be preventing a criminal from raping or killing your daughter. But that's just an example. It is okay if you are doing it to preserve a higher moral law. If that person is going to commit some terrible sin against you or someone else, then it is necessary. And Hank didn't say anything about a moral obligation. It was the website that mentioned that. And we have a moral obligation to everyone. Let me use an example. A man is looking for a little girl whom he kidnapped, that had gotten away. You see her and help her hide. When the man comes and asks you where she is, you will tell the man something that is untrue--not because you don't have a moral obligation to tell him truth, but because you have a moral obligation to protect the girl.
Quote: Has nothing to do with what I asked but......what? He can't make the decision for me but I have to trust in his judgment? What?
Sorry, I mistyped. I meant to say "trust in your judgment." __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 15 Nov 2008 14:05
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Quote: if you don't see how this could be bad then I just don't know about you dude.
You did the exact same thing Tim, in the covert politics thread with the 'stealth supporter'.
My question was not answered how pointing out what someone had done could be considered an attack.
Quote: at least one person lost their job already due to this modern blacklist.
He resigned his position in deserved shame for supporting discrimination against the people he was surrounded by on a daily basis. If he wasn't going to be proud of supporting such efforts maybe he shouldn't have done so in the first place?
I completely agree that a witch hunt is bad news but this is nowhere near 'McCarthyism' - these are people who actually did what thier opposition says they did. They deserve their spotlight and the consequences for their actions if there be any. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 15 Nov 2008 14:09
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Quote: You see her and help her hide. When the man comes and asks you where she is, you will tell the man something that is untrue--not because you don't have a moral obligation to tell him truth, but because you have a moral obligation to protect the girl.
I do love your example and I agree that this is the best behavior besides laying that guy out or at the very least calling the police, but I want you to keep two things in mind.
It doesn't stop being a lie, even for the best of reasons.
and, remember this?
Quote: A proper moral action is one that that advances, upholds or secures values of creation, growth or well-being, even to the extent of sacrificing a lesser but decidedly positive value.
A negative moral action is one that will knowingly cause a result of some measurable loss or destruction for the purpose of some known personal gain.
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 15 Nov 2008 18:05
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Quote: It doesn't stop being a lie, even for the best of reasons.
Lets keep in mind what we're arguing about. We are trying to answer the question, "Is it ever morally permissable to lie?" which is aimed for those who believe in God and are looking for direction. So of course Hank answers this in a Chirstian perspective. And I nor Hank are trying to convince you to believe in God in this case--but as with all these questions I have posted, the purpose here is to teach. This is a very difficult issue to argue, due to the fact that I wouldn't be able to find any evidence that doesn't include religious sources to support my position about lying. So to answer your question, I would say that it does stop being a lie, but since you don't believe in God there is no way of convincing you of that. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 15 Nov 2008 21:57
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Quote: So to answer your question, I would say that it does stop being a lie, but since you don't believe in God there is no way of convincing you of that.
Regardless of dieties or assorted beliefs associated with them, a lie does not stop being a lie, even with the best of intentions, morally permissable or no. If it's not the truth, it's not the truth.
We do have an answer to another question though. You know why people commit atrocities in Christ's name? People like Hank who try to distort reality by playing with definitions and rules to fit their own convenience. Hank did answer a question finally-completely unintentionally, no doubt. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 15 Nov 2008 22:10 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers
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No Pak. Its because there are fools out there that kill nonbelievers, thinking it is what God wants. There's always going to be people like that out there. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 15 Nov 2008 22:49
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Quote: Its because there are fools out there that kill nonbelievers, thinking it is what God wants.
Where would they get the idea from? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 17 Nov 2008 13:06
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One of the folks I subscribe to on YouTube used to go by the handle KingTheist23. I had invited him here awhile back and I believe that was him that posted a handful of posts under the name JimboRush here- I could be wrong but I believe this is true. Michael has recently changed his channel name to Rational Roundtable, which is quite appropriate actually.
I tell you all this, here, because he just posted a pretty spectacular viewpoint on the whole gay marriage issue. A few things on my periphery that I couldn't express, he found a way to express them and there was one particular thing I completely overlooked which he covers rather well. That particular thing would be how when religion and government comingle they have a tendency to corrupt each other, with government gaining the upper hand usually. I do hope if he was JimboRush, he comes back- we need people of this calibur in on the conversation to learn from and advance with.
I'm gonna drop him a note to let him know I'm posting this and ask if he would rejoin us. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Quote: Pope Urban II gave the following reaons for starting the First Crusade in his speech at the Council of Clermont:
The Turks were severely persecuting the Christians in the Middle East, even murdering them.
The Turks had taken over territory previously belonging to Christians, including Jerusalem and sites which were considered holy
Christ commanded it
The most emphasis seems to have been on the second point, that Jerusalem was in the hands of nonbelievers. While Fulcher of Chartres records Urban as saying, "Christ commands it," there is no record that the pope received a direct command from God (one would expect that a vision or other sign would have been prominently featured in the pope's speech), so presumably he meant the crusade was in line with Christ's commands and teachings in the Bible. During his speech, the audience spontaneously broke into a cry of "It is the will of God!", which was taken by the pope and others to be a sign that it was in fact God's will. While this could have been a genuine response of people to the Holy Spirit, another possibility is that it was of human origin (c.f. Ac 19:28-34).
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- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 19 Nov 2008 15:14
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Interesting stuff. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 19 Nov 2008 16:05
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Steve, my question was about followers who get the 'wrong' messages as opposed to the ones who get the 'right' messages as they're both supposed to be following the same source(s). Why is it that two people who both consider themselves good Christians can do completely opposite things and believe this is what they are supposed to be doing? You yourself mentioned using judgment-where do those two people get their oppsoing judgments from if they're both using the same holy book?(we can look at two Muslims and the Quran for this if that's more comfortable for you)
Tim:
Quote: Interesting stuff.
Just the quotes about the speech or did you watch the vid? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
