Please keep in mind that every time he types Juedo he means Judeo.
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 04 Sep 2007 07:44
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It was either you or Dharvey that questioned where an atheist gets his morals from Tim. The answer is judgement by reasoning and this individual who is smarter than myself will hopefully answer your question.
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 04 Sep 2007 07:59
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Here's an interesting take on the 10 commandments.
Nietzsche and the commandments.
An atheist version of those same commandments. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 04 Sep 2007 08:26
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Finally, a collection on Creationism from walking pet dinosaurs to whats being taught in schools. Fun harmless stuff. Enjoy.
This is for the post someone did about the mushy dino muscle. Dawkins on a 6k old universe.
A representation of teaching ID in school from the Simpsons.
Lastly, a better video on the Nightline debate between Cameron/Comfort and the atheists. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 04 Sep 2007 16:55
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First video which attacks the assumption we have a nation founded on Christian principles, the question is where in the Bible does it tell how to create a representative government or a constitution that protects the rights of all citizens including freedom of religion etc. It goes on to ask about equal rights for minorities, etc and and claims that these aren't even hinted at in the Bible.
First of all the guy who made the video probably hasn't studied the Bible enough to even recognize the simple truths of the Bible that our country was founded on like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" Wow that's simple but it covers about everything doesn't it? "Love your neighor as yourself" is another one. Treat a black, white, red, or yellow man like you would yourself I'd say was implied here with both statments.
The foundation of our government comes from the idea that our rights come from God and not from the state. The state could take your rights away if they gave them to you in the first place. Rights given by God to man cannot be taken away by the government.
From the Declaration of Independence. - We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
In the book One Nation Under God page 133 it states that a few decades ago a study was done by two political science professors named Donald S. Lutz and Charles S. Hyneman on the Declaration of Independence. They examined over 15,000 political documents and books written in America's founding era and found that the source most quoted in these writings was the Bible. Four times more than they quoted any single individual they quoted the Bible. After that it was Montesquieu, William Blackstone, and John Locke. All professing Christians. Locke was said to have had a great influence on Thomas Jefferson and is attributed the phrase, "life, liberty, and propery".
On to the Constitution.
According to the book One Nation Under God the founders wrote the constitution keeping in mind the sinfulness of man. Thus the checks and balances to protect man from government that could become corrupted by the general nature of man. Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:who can know it?" The French Revolution in contrast began with the teachings of Jean Jacques Rosseau and other secular Enlightment figures that said man is basically good and man could remake government in their own image. This led to a bloodbath before and after their revolution, and further the French have had several new constitutions in the same period we have had our one constitution. To quote James Madison, "All men having power ought to be distrusted."
One Constitution signer, Gouverneur Morris said, "Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man toward God"
On the side of not enforcing a religion physically on another individual, James Madison said, "While we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess, and to observe religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannont deny an equal freedom to those whose minds have not yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offense against God, not against man: To God therefore, not to men, must an account of it be rendered.
It was within their belief in God that they asserted all freedom even the freedom to not believe in God.
from One Nation Under God -James Madison in Federalist #49 The people are the only legitimate fountain of power, and it is from them that the constitutional charter, under which the several branches of government hold their power, is derived.
(See voting should be how new laws are decided not having laws created by judges)
Alexander Hamiliton looking back at the writing of the Constitution said, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests.
And of course there was the Ben Franklin Speech during the constitutional convention asking that his fellow country men look to God for help.
James Madison, the chief architect of the Bill of Rights (including the First Amendment) introduced a bill into the Virginia legislature on October 31, 1785, "For appointing days of public fasting and thanksgiving" Shows where he stood on the seperation of church and state.
Take a look at Madison's original wording of the Establishment of Religion Clause. "The Civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of Conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext infringed. This shows more specifically what he had in mind. This would without a doubt include the freedom to speak on public property of the name of Jesus as it is a part of a individual's concience.
The Constitution is based on compromise, perhaps the best route for those of us who like to argue politics would be to look for compromises that please both parties in the same spirit in which the Constitution was formed. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 04 Sep 2007 17:04
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Quote: Here's an interesting take on the 10 commandments.
Rediculously pessimistic view to the point of absurdity. Nuff said. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 04 Sep 2007 17:09
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Quote: A representation of teaching ID in school from the Simpsons.
I don't know but wasn't Darwin a racist? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 04 Sep 2007 20:29
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I've noticed something. Anytime someone offers an opinion that goes against your holy book you try to assassinate their character. Everything from bitterness to drugs and alcohol or they're just uninformed. Let's see what we got today.
Quote: First of all the guy who made the video probably hasn't studied the Bible enough to even recognize the simple truths of the Bible
Quote: Rediculously pessimistic view to the point of absurdity
Quote: wasn't Darwin a racist?
All things to try and make your side the winner while usually avoiding answering the actual question.
I get rhetoric, quotes from one biased book of fiction or another, or straight up insults, deflections and misled or misguided logic.
A simple question merits a simple answer.
Where are those things even hinted at in the bible? Why is democracy based on the what the greeks offered and not ot what your holy book offers?
Your answer is your opinion by making leaps in faith and logic.
Quote: the simple truths of the Bible that our country was founded on like "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
What part of our government is actually based on this?
That lengthy diatribe about what their motivations were, complete with quotes taken out of context and reminiscences of the founders does not answer the questions you were presented with. Quoting things from that book falls around the same level as quoting Fox News- all the bias that's fit to print. What the author says these people were thinking and feeling is irrelevant, because it's heresay and it has nothing to do with answering the actual question presented. Neither does the supposed cry for God's help from Ben Franklin or Madison's original draft of anything or Washington being bulletproof or whatever dogmatic fantasy that book promotes.
Just answer these questions.
Where are those things even hinted at in the bible?
Why is our democracy based on the Greeks and not any religion? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 05 Sep 2007 17:06
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Quote: First of all the guy who made the video probably hasn't studied the Bible enough to even recognize the simple truths of the Bible
That's not assinating his character. That's just pointing out the obvious. It would be like going to a dog catcher for medical advice. They've never studied the subject.
Quote: Rediculously pessimistic view to the point of absurdity
That was a description of the view not the person.
Quote: I get rhetoric, quotes from one biased book of fiction or another, or straight up insults, deflections and misled or misguided logic
I'm trying to delve into history, study what perspective our Founding Fathers had when they wrote the Consitution, found out exactly what they meant. I can't help it if you believe it doesn't count unless it's an atheistic view, or a clip from the Family Guy show.
I think if you read what I wrote all of your questions are answered.
Quote: Washington being bulletproof
That was from an episode of One Step Beyond, but the fact is that historians all agree on the fact that Washington should have been killed under such heavy fire, but never even got a scratch.
Quote: Where are those things even hinted at in the bible?
You are pushing hard to claim all of my work to answer the questions doesn't even rise to the level necessary to prove the Bible even hints at the principles set forth in the Constitution. You aren't going to prove me wrong with another list of Family Guy moments.
Quote: Why is our democracy based on the Greeks and not any religion?
That's one for you to prove. If the founding fathers got some ideas from the Greeks I wouldn't be surprised. My mission was to prove the Founding Father relied mostly on the Bible. I think I did that more than adequately.
About Darwin though isn't it a known fact that he was in fact a racist? Is it true or not? You know more about the guy than I do although I have watched a few things on TV, and read a few things. It's been a while. I've heard he claimed blacks were inferior to whites. It's not cool to try and discredit people sure, but sometimes it's relevant when it goes to the core of what you believe. Since Darwin created the theory, it's wise to know exactly what was he trying to prove.
Here's one source that quotes Darwin's books.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/12
You'll of course see other sites that remark on Darwin's anti-slavery opinions. Seems he may have thought slavery was evil, but was not enlightened to the fact that all men are created equal. I can see an individual opposed to slavery back then, but not allowing that all men are equal in their personal opinions. So believe what you want, but it's just one more thing that needs to be explored in this debate don't you think?
But don't get off on defending Darwin till you go back and reread my work on the Constitution and it's Biblical foundations. I get the feeling it didn't sink in the first time. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 06 Sep 2007 02:29
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1 Question.
1 Answer.
If this country is supposedly based on Christian beliefs which are based on the bible, where are the democratic elements in the bible(any of them)?
Quote: I think I did that more than adequately
Where? Do it again. You're supposed to have studied the bible extensively and all you've posted is that drivel from 'one nation under god' and "Do unto others". Far below adequate. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 06 Sep 2007 02:43
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Here's that list again in case the vid is too fast.
A representative democracy.
A constitution that protects the rights of all citizens.
Fair and just laws of an impartial system of justice where you are innocent until proven guilty.
Freedom of religion and freedom from it.
Freedom of the press.
Gender equality and minority rights.
Neither Jesus or the ten commandements are in the constitution or our laws.
Show us the passage(s) that prove this amateur wrong. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 06 Sep 2007 02:45
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As a bonus, here's where democracy comes from, since you want to study history.
Origins of Democracy
The word "democracy," as well as the concept it represents, can be traced back to the area surrounding the Mediterranean Sea. The beginnings of democracy can be credited to the Greeks of the sixth century BC. The word comes from two Greek words: demos, meaning "the people," and kratein, meaning "to rule." These two words are joined together to form democracy, literally meaning "rule by the people" (Pious). The Greek system of government was perhaps closer to a true democracy or rule by the people than any other in history. The Greeks viewed dictatorship as the worst possible form of government, so their government evolved as the exact opposite. Their civilization was broken down into small city-states (never more than 10,000 citizens), and all the men voted on all issues of government. There were no representatives in the Greek system of government. Instead, they ruled themselves directly; each man was a life long member of the decision making body. This was almost a total democracy except for the fact that women and slaves (over 50% of the population) were not considered citizens and were not allowed to vote. Despite this, no other civilization has come as close to democracy as its creators, the Greeks, and many later civilizations have incorporated this Greek idea as part of the foundation for their government (Lee; Lefebvre).
Ideas of democracy similar to that of the Greeks were used by the Romans, though not to the same extent. The Roman Empire (509-27 BC) took some of their governmental ideals from the Greeks. Their government was a representative democracy, which had representatives from the nobility in the Senate and representatives from the commoners in the Assembly. Governmental power was divided between these two branches and they voted on various issues. Many Roman political thinkers were fond of democracy. The Roman Statesman, Cicero was one. Cicero suggested that all people have certain rights that should be preserved. He and other political philosophers of the time taught that governmental and political power should come from the people (Lefebvre; Lee). After the trend of democracy was started by the Greeks and carried on by the Romans, it has been seen in many later governmental systems throughout history.
Democracy in the Middle Ages
Though democracy was not directly instituted in the Middle Ages, many democratic ideas were prevalent throughout the period. Because Christianity, which taught that men were created equal in the eyes of God, was deeply ingrained into the society of the Middle Ages, the democratic idea of equality was understood by many of the people. The Middle Ages, however, utilized another form of government, which was developed during this period called feudalism. Feudalism stressed that all people have certain rights and developed a system of courts to defend these rights. From these courts came the modern day judicial branch of the American government along with many of the ideas such as kings councils, assemblies and eventually parliamentary systems (Sanford 20-27).
Democracy in England
In 1215 AD, the Magna Carta opened the door to a more democratic system in England. Nobles forced King John to sign this "Great Charter" that created the English "Parliament", or law-making body, and stated that the written laws held a higher power than the king, thereby limiting the power of the Royal family and giving some of that power to the people. Later, the Petition of Right (162 stipulated that the King could no longer tax without parliament’s permission and the Bill of Rights (1689) provided freedom of speech and banned cruel or unusual punishment. These strengthened Parliament further and gave the people more right to express themselves. Though these reforms did not make England a true democracy in any sense, they did incorporate democratic ideals, which would later be used to form the government of the United States (Lefebvre; Pious).
John Locke
The concept of democracy continued to be prevalent in Europe with the philosophies of an English philosopher by the name of John Locke and a French philosopher named Jean Jacques Rousseau. Locke’s book, Two Treatises (published in 1690), stated that under the "social contract," the government's job was to protect "natural rights", which included "the right to life, liberty, and the ownership of property." Rousseau expanded on this idea with his book, The Social Contract, in 1762. In essence, these two philosophers said that the people should have input on how their government is run. This school of thought paved the way for modern day American Democracy (Lefebvre).
Jean Jacques Rousseau ->
The Path to Modern Democracy
The American Revolution is another important event in the history of democracy. The first step, of course, in America’s pursuit of democracy was the Declaration of Independence in 1776. In this great document, written by Thomas Jefferson, many ideas are taken from the aforementioned philosophers, Locke and Rousseau. From Locke, Jefferson borrowed the idea that all men are created equal, and he altered the right to life, liberty and property to "the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Jefferson borrowed a little from Rousseau as well when he said that all men should have the right to take up arms against the government if it did not respect these rights (Jefferson).
In the French Revolution, a similar cause was espoused. Political thinkers and philosophers such as Montesquieu, Voltaire, and Rousseau inspired the people by building off of American ideas and insisting that freedom comes only after the legislative, judicial and executive branches of the government are separated. The people of France overthrew the king, then set forth the "Declaration of the Rights of Man," which changed Locke’s right to life, liberty and property to the right to "liberty, property, security, and resistance to oppression." (The resistance of oppression probably came from Rousseau.) These ideas, like the ones in the American Declaration of Independence, lended themselves to a partially democratic system where the powers of the king are limited and the people have some say in their government (Pious; Lefebvre).
All over the world, revolutions began to spring up against monarchies, and democratic governments began to develop. Before the end of the 19th century, almost all of the Western European monarchies had adopted a constitution limiting the power of the Royal Family and giving some power to the people. Parliamentary type representative legislatures were also developed in many of these countries, giving the people more power to rule (Pious).
With the growing success of democracy in the United States and in other countries throughout the world, democracy became more and more popular. By the 1950’s, almost every independent country on the planet had a government that embodied some of the principals and ideals put forth by democracy. The model nation for these principals became the United States (Pious; Sanford 20-27).
Democracy in America
Modern American democracy is in the form of a democratic republic or a representative democracy. A representative democracy came about in the United States because the colonists were tired of taxation without representation and wanted a more fair system where the people had more say in the rule of the country. They did not desire the Athenian form of democracy however; as they feared it would give the people too much power and would lend control of the government to the uneducated masses. What they came up with was a representative democracy wherein elected representatives rather than direct rule by the people rule the government. These representatives are elected with the idea that they will accurately represent their constituents, but in case some don’t, the U.S. government is divided into three branches to keep corruption in check. These three branches are the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches. No one branch contains absolute power, rather, each branch is balanced off of the others creating a system of checks and balances to protect the principals of democracy. This system is in no way perfect, and this is why we must pursue a more perfect form of democracy and a more perfect union between our citizens, states and country (Pious; Sanford 20-27). __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 06 Sep 2007 02:53
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I'm sure you see Christianity mentioned in there as helping people recognize something else. Please note that this is the only benefit of Christianity present anywhere in the article.
Jefferson's inspiriation were Locke and Rousseau, not the almighty.
You'll also notice that this is about the actual object of democracy and not people's supposed 'mindsets' or other rhetorical nonsense. This is an actual history lesson, not someone selling you a book and telling you what you want to hear.
Answer the question. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 06 Sep 2007 15:21
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As I pointed out John Locke was himself a Christian. As I also pointed out the French Revolution based on a more humanistic view created a constitution that has not lasted like the American Constitution.
As I have pointed out with the founder's own words.
From the Declaration of Independence. - We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
The foundation of the Consitution and the entire philosophy of our founders was that we are created with rights. Rights are given to us by God. GE 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
Were they influenced by Greeks. Like I said before I don't doubt that, but also as I said before it was Greeks that were the most quoted of the day politically. It was the Bible. Think on this. If the Greeks had given them ideas on structure, the Bible gave them the will, the reasoning, the motivation, and the ability to pull everyone together to risk their lives to form a more perfect union. It's like taking a sports hero that doesn't have faith he can win. The founders had faith they could win, but not in themselves in God. If you took that of out the equation they would have never got off the ground. They wouldn't have had the will. They had to believe they were meant to do this. They had to believe God was on their side. That God had given them rights that no man, or king had the right to take away. I happen to believe that too. You want to take the heart out of the equation, and it can't be done. There may not be a passage of scripture that lays down specifically word for word how to create a democracy, but take away the Bible and you take away the reason the founders gave to create our democracy. How much plainer could it be? "All men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" They didn't say all men are created by the Greeks.
And what makes this page http://library.thinkquest.org/26466/history_of_democracy.html any more reliant than my book written by from Christian historian's perspective. It's not that the facts are different or wrong it's just that you choose to ignore or focus on only the facts that suit you. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 07 Sep 2007 02:16
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You're quoting Genesis about man's dominion over animals. What has this to do with democracy? This is a worse segue than 'do unto others'.
Quote: any more reliant than my book written by from Christian historian's perspective
The Christian part. Why not just a historian? Thats right, to sell books to Christians.
AND WE STILL HAVE NO MENTION OF ANYTHING RESEMBLING DEMOCRACY IN THE BIBLE. It doesn't matter 'word for word'. The ideas and notions are nowhere to be found.
I'll focus on all facts-try presenting some. I see the 'endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights' line. And? Finish the line. 'Chief among these being Life Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness.'. Nothing about democracy implied, at all, as far as our actual liberties are concerned. You're allowed to be alive, to be free in the world and try to do what makes you smile. That could be a hippy commune or a cult for that matter. It is insufficient. Find a real answer. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 07 Sep 2007 15:33
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As I said in another post, a Christian book is more efficient in finding the details I need to make my argument as a secular author might go out of their way to hide the religious nature of our Founding Fathers.
I've explained to you how important the Bible and faith in God was to the creation of the Constitution. The Founding Fathers got their inspiration from their belief that all men are created equal by God and have rights given by God that cannot be taken away by man. The entire constitution hangs on that primary concept whether the freedom of the press was mentioned in the Bible or not. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 08 Sep 2007 00:58
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You're entitled to your opinion.
I don't share that opinion. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 08 Sep 2007 19:08
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Quote: I don't share that opinion.
Shame you don't want to understand the basis of my opinion more. You might change your mind a little. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 09 Sep 2007 00:45
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You have made it abundantly clear the source of your opinions Tim. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 10 Sep 2007 15:15
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What's your source an old hippy that had one too many bad acid trips? EWWWW got you on that one. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 10 Sep 2007 19:50
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I'm just going to assume at this point that you will never find one source from your holy book that supports this country being founded on Christian principles. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 10 Sep 2007 20:19
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No, you can assume there isn't a step by step instructional booklet like you get for putting something together some shelves from Walmart, but without any doubt this country was founded on Christian principles. No need for me to go over it all again. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 10 Sep 2007 20:48
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Quote: No need for me to go over it all again
Sure is, because you haven't. You make a claim and can't back it up, but that's not your fault. It's not true. What some professors found in some alternate paperwork from the founders does not apply to this and neither does one opinion or another especially from an author who pretends to know what dead people think. Show evidence from the book you get your beliefs from and that the Christain faith is based upon. Quote exact passages from the bible that have anything to do with what the Constitution is comprised of.
Where is the freedom of religion? According to your book, there is only one correct one, which leaves no freedom for any others. This is something like an automatic disqualification.
Where is the document, system, or even just wording that protects the rights of everyone? It's not the ten commandments. They are a list of commandments- a to do list- that does not give anyone rights to anything. This is supposedly the word of God on how he wants you to live in order to go to Heaven right? This list grants no freedom and no rights to anyone at all, even those seeking Heaven-just 'Do This Or Else'.
Where is even ONE example of innocence until guilt is proven? You may be tempted to find some quote you want to add your impression to again. I'm not looking for opinions here. Show one actual example of innocence until guilt is proven from the bible.
From Eve ruining paradise, to Delilah ruining Samson, to the woman who called for John the Baptist's head, to Lot's wife-I've got plenty of stories to the contrary. Show one example of actual gender equality in that same book.
Again, quote from the bible(which you are supposed to be so scholarly with having studied it so much) and not 'One Nation Under God'. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 10 Sep 2007 22:45
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Quote: Sure is, because you haven't. You make a claim and can't back it up,
I practically wrote a book of my own what else do you want?
Quote: What some professors found in some alternate paperwork from the founders does not apply to this
Say what jack?
Dude, I quoted the Declaration of Independence and it wasn't good enough for you. Do you think when they said, " We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" that they were talking about some other God besides the one in the bible.
Quote: Again, quote from the bible
Gee whiz, quote from the Bible, don't quote from the Bible. I'm getting dizzy. Make up your mind already.
Quote: Show one example of actual gender equality in that same book.
Ok,
Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
The Bible goes over equality and demands we love our wife enough that we would sacrafice ourself for her. Equality isn't enough be biblical standards. Putting others first in all things is the rule of God's law. Of course putting others first sometimes means you have to tell them the truth even if they call you a hateful bigotted narrow minded whatever.
Quote: Where is the freedom of religion?
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This covers being kind to everyone regardless of their religion.
Of course the Bible isn't going to say, Jesus died for your sins, but God will let you in if your really sincere about the way of your choosing. It's all good choose the way you want. Of course the Bible isn't going to say that.
Quote: Where is even ONE example of innocence until guilt is proven?
God gave the Israelites plenty of examples of how to judge someone guilty or innoccent, and guided them to make sure they had witnesses etc. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 11 Sep 2007 04:36
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Declaration of Independence says creator, not a particular God, not a particular religion, not a particular source.
'Husbands love your wives' does not make the wives equal and doesn't mention other women besides wives. This is not equality.
Quote: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This covers being kind to everyone regardless of their religion.
Of course the Bible isn't going to say, Jesus died for your sins, but God will let you in if your really sincere about the way of your choosing. It's all good choose the way you want. Of course the Bible isn't going to say that.
All that and it's still not OK to be Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, Atheistic or otherwise. No freedom there whatsoever.
How to judge does not equal innocence until proven guilty.
At least you're consistant. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 11 Sep 2007 16:26
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Quote: Declaration of Independence says creator, not a particular God, not a particular religion, not a particular source.
How many creators do you think they believed in?
Quote: 'Husbands love your wives' does not make the wives equal and doesn't mention other women besides wives. This is not equality.
You're right it's better than equality.
Quote: All that and it's still not OK to be Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, Atheistic or otherwise. No freedom there whatsoever.
Define ok. What would be the purpose of choosing Christ if there were several other ways to heaven? Why would Jesus bother to die on the cross if there other easier ways that didn't include His death? Think about it from my perspective. How can there be 50 million different truths? It's like arguing over what 2 plus 2 equals. Doesn't matter what anybody wants it to be, it's 4. There has to be ultimate truth otherwise I wouldn't waste my time going to church. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 11 Sep 2007 19:14
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Which creator? Why would I know that or be the slightest bit concerned? It has nothing to do with the founding of our country. Right now, in just Christianity, there are 8 major branches which filter down to about 1200 different 'organizations'. Which one of those is the 'right' one? As we speak there are over 10,000 seperate 'faiths' in the world.
Maybe Thomas Jefferson believed in Odin. Does that actually matter? The declaration doesn't point toward any one religion. That's your 2+2=4 truth.
'Husbands love your wives' makes the wives insignificant without a husband and slightly better than possessions after marriage. THIS IS NOT GENDER EQUALITY.
Quote: What would be the purpose of choosing Christ
That's a great question you have the right to ask when the next guy has the right to ask the same about Allah. It's that choice, not agreeing on which path to Heaven is the right one when not everyone even agrees there is a heaven.
Quote: How can there be 50 million different truths?
There can't. You found yours, I found mine. Thanks Constitution! __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 11 Sep 2007 19:43
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Quote: Maybe Thomas Jefferson believed in Odin. Does that actually matter?
That's nutty.
Quote: 'Husbands love your wives' makes the wives insignificant without a husband
That type of reasoning is one reason families are suffering so much nowadays. You are implying that being married somehow degrades a woman aren't you. Go hug a tree dude.
Quote: That's a great question you have the right to ask when the next guy has the right to ask the same about Allah. It's that choice, not agreeing on which path to Heaven is the right one when not everyone even agrees there is a heaven
Where are you going with this? Exactly what would you have me to do that I'm not doing now that you think I should in relation to other religions?
Quote: There can't. You found yours, I found mine. Thanks Constitution
The constitution doesn't teach there are truths for each person. Just that you have the right to believe what you want. Having a legal right to believe 2 plus 2 equals 5 doesn't mean it actually does equal 5 now does it?
I really do want to know what is the correct liberal approach I should be taking? Should I disreguard my Lord's teaching in inviting others to accept the Jesus as Saviour? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 11 Sep 2007 20:30
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Quote: You are implying that being married somehow degrades a woman aren't you.
No. That's what your quote does, and what your good book does.
Quote: I really do want to know what is the correct liberal approach I should be taking? Should I disreguard my Lord's teaching in inviting others to accept the Jesus as Saviour?
Whoever you accept as your saviour is your business/ whoever someone else prays to or serves or calls master or what have you is theirs. Your way, from everything I've seen you post this far, is that you believe freedom of speech is that everyone is free to be Christian or wrong. These are the only apparent two free choices anyone has according to what you post. This is not freedom of religion. Freedon of religion is the right to express your belief in any religion or no religion. Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with someone's rights. Get it yet? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 12 Sep 2007 16:43
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote: No. That's what your quote does, and what your good book does.
Me loving my wife degrades her? How does that make sense even to a liberal? So if I hated her she would be more equal?
Quote: Freedon of religion is the right to express your belief in any religion or no religion.
Exactly, we should all have the right to express our beliefs. My expressing belief doesn't hinder you from not believing. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
stipulated that the King could no longer tax without parliament’s permission and the Bill of Rights (1689) provided freedom of speech and banned cruel or unusual punishment. These strengthened Parliament further and gave the people more right to express themselves. Though these reforms did not make England a true democracy in any sense, they did incorporate democratic ideals, which would later be used to form the government of the United States (Lefebvre; Pious).
