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| Posted: 12 Aug 2008 15:51 |
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The topic that just won't die. From the 'dog poopy' thread:
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Tim:How do you come to terms with the idea that all people normally have a choice over the course of their actions with this idea that gay people have no choice in the matter? Assuming of course that you do believe as I do that we all have choices in life on what we become or do in our lives.
We could debate the morality of this forever since I base my morality on the Bible and you do not, but I would sincerely love to understand what it is that allows you to believe gays do not have a choice, regardless of whether it's right or wrong.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 12 Aug 2008 16:13 |
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the idea that all people normally have a choice over the course of their actions with this idea that gay people have no choice in the matter
The choice of doing something versus having the choice of being something. Try this Tim. Try hating Superman or comics in general. Can't do it right? You happen to love both unless something is different this morning from yesterday or the day before. Whether or not you go out and buy some comics is the choice you make depnding on a few factors but mainly on your love of them. Even if society frowned on them you would still go out and 'get some'.
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We could debate the morality of this forever
Not really. The only thing that keeps it going is the incessant need of the religious right to control everyone.
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I base my morality on the Bible and you do not
Oh, let's just go there. Actually, you don't base your morality on the bible. It sounds good. It sounds exactly like how you should have gotten your morals. It's a lie. It's a misrepresntation of the truth by cherry picking around the 'nasty parts'. This garbage was probably something preached at you that you never really gave any consideration to at all and just started parading around as a valiant 'truth'.
If this feels like an attack, consider your statement. It's the audacity of making yourself superior to others while proclaiming others as immoral. No median, no grey area. If anything, call my comments returning the favor.
Here's my say on biblical 'morality'. If you need to read up on what the difference between right and wrong is or refer to an edited version of a 2000 year old revisionist checklist for proper responses to situations, it is because you have no morality inside of you. You saying you get your morality from a book makes you the immoral one. I'll back that up a little further. If the only reason you do good things is for a reward of heaven or for fearing the wrath of God, you are completely devoid of morality yet again-you're just putting on a show.
Would you care to edit your thoughts on where morality comes from? Let me know.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 12 Aug 2008 17:14 |
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You say you are getting morality from within huh? We do have a God given conscience, but remember the one that gave you that conscience wrote the book on morality as well.
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Try hating Superman or comics in general. Can't do it right? Well if somebody came to me and said you should hate Superman because it's silly and for kids. I'd never listen, but say a fellow Christian showed me in the Bible where reading Superman somehow kept me from being right with God. In that case I'd have no choice. It's a choice. I can do what's right, or go with what I think makes me happy. The problem is most of the time we only think we know what's going to make us happy. God really does know what ultimately will make us happy in the long run.
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t's the audacity of making yourself superior to others while proclaiming others as immoral. The thing is I'm not proclaiming that. God's word is, and I believe God over man. The Bible says, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. To be honest as Christian my first priority should be to win people to Christ. Jesus will take care of how the person acts when he lives in their heart.
The reason why I keep coming back to this gay argument is because it's not just about an individual lifestyle. It's become a political movement that effects everyone not just the ones involved in it.
Think about it if laws weren't' being changed. If everything else like school books, TV, movies, and comics weren't being changed around us would I even care enough to argue about it?
Now I still ask, do you believe a man is responsible for his actions, or are we completely helpless to our genetics?
If a scientist puts out a paper saying that everything is controlled by our physical makeup then do we give up the right to choose?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 12 Aug 2008 19:46 |
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We do have a God given conscience, but remember the one that gave you that conscience wrote the book on morality as well.
I'll be less than harsh here. Men wrote that collection of books. There were many many books before the council of Nicene decided which ones and what parts thereof were to be the absolute canon. Hand me down second hand fairy tales that wer otherwise stolen from the Jews and Pagans, edited beyond recognition and then decided on by a committee of priests more than 300 years after Jesus supposedly lived. If it is the work of God, then he had far too many middlemen ruin it and obviously does sloppy and convenient work for the benefit of priests alone.
If you wish to stick with the argument about inspiration and how God created everything and knows everything, than everything is inspired by God-my words, pornography, horror movies and tripe like "Dude, where's my car?".
If you really want to debate about using the bible as your one true source of morality I'll be glad to point out some of how much you must be skipping over.
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say a fellow Christian showed me in the Bible where reading Superman somehow kept me from being right with God
Show me how having a gay character in a story somehow keeps you from being right with God then.
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God's word is, and I believe God over man.
Let me make sure I have this right. The bible is the word of God and there is no truth outside of it?
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my first priority should be to win people to Christ.
That's interesting. Show me where the bible says this is your first priority.
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I keep coming back to this gay argument is because it's not just about an individual lifestyle. It's become a political movement that effects everyone not just the ones involved in it.
Why does it involve you or me? You keep avoiding any personal stake in this. How does their gay lifestyle affect the rest of us?
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Think about it if laws weren't' being changed
Did you ever think about why laws get changed? How some go out of style, how some have to catch up with modernity and how some should not have been created in the first place?
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If everything else like school books, TV, movies, and comics weren't being changed around us would I even care enough to argue about it?
This again comes down to why you care about it. You say you have children now and if this is the truth then you have every right to determine that anything your child is taught is not harmful to them or even contrary to your faith. So if they are teaching these 'evil' things in the secular school like evolution and homosexuality acceptance and you want your child excluded from being taught that, you have three options and three options alone.
You can pull them out of the secular system and homeschool them. You can send them to a private school where they share your beliefs and will painstakingly make sure that faith is fortified and protected. Last but not least, if you won't homeschool and won't pay for a private school, you'll have to yank them out of every single class that touches such controversial subject matter.
If you were thinking that the school system should be changed to your specific wishes, then it's no longer a secular system if they give in-which they can't do on one exclusive belief system}this is not an option.
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Now I still ask, do you believe a man is responsible for his actions, or are we completely helpless to our genetics?
Maybe my point didn't come through quite clearly enough by using a preference instead of something you were actually born as. Try to choose not being white for even a moment. Now I still say, you are confusing a choice of action as opposed to an emotional response-you've made a false dichotomy of sorts. These things are not flip sides of the same coin.
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If a scientist puts out a paper saying that everything is controlled by our physical makeup then do we give up the right to choose?
If a scientist put out a paper proving the existence of God would you hate scientists less?
See above about your false dichotomy and understand this is an extension of the same thing.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 12 Aug 2008 21:01 |
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Show me how having a gay character in a story somehow keeps you from being right with God then. I told you why I think that's a bad idea sufficiently, I believe.
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Let me make sure I have this right. The bible is the word of God and there is no truth outside of it? The Bible is God's word and there is nothing that is more true than the Bible. There are other truths as long as they don't contradict the Bible.
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That's interesting. Show me where the bible says this is your first priority.
Haven't you heard the verse from Jesus that says, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gosple"?
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How does their gay lifestyle affect the rest of us? Like I said we aren't arguing because somebody wants to do something in their own home I don't agree with. We are arguing because a group of people want to change laws, school books, and even my entertainment to suit their purposes. This is the same thing you gripe about that you think Christians are trying to do to you.
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some should not have been created in the first place? Yep, I agree so I for one am going to stand up and hope my voice keeps stupid laws from being passed.
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You can pull them out of the secular system and homeschool them. There's no way you can tell me it's ok for a public school to teach gay rights. At best that's a political opinion that shouldn't be pushed on kids at school. At worst it's teaching that an immoral lifestyle is ok. So go for it.
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Try to choose not being white for even a moment. A course of action can be chosen. A skin color can not be chosen.
If you say gayness is not a choice then what else is not a choice? Talk about a slippery slope.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 12 Aug 2008 21:35 |
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If you had explained how having a gay person in a story keeps you from God sufficiently, I wouldn't have asked. Please repeat it.
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The Bible is God's word and there is nothing that is more true than the Bible.
There are very clear contradictions in it. So how can something be true at the same time it contradicts itself?
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Haven't you heard the verse from Jesus that says, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gosple"?
You don't see you've added your own meaning to these words to justify your sentiments? You also don't see how your deeds and words are at cross purposes here? Your words specifically were that your first priority was to win people to Christ. How do you make the jump from preaching the gospel to selling Jesus and where does this say to make any of that your main priority in the first place?
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We are arguing because a group of people want to change laws, school books, and even my entertainment to suit their purposes.
Individuals can't do any of that just because they're a group with a purpose or else we would be living in a theocracy just like most of the Middle East, only more anglo. A group wants to change things to suit their purposes and this is a problem why? You still haven't made clear any actual consequences, penalties or problems for you personally. If they change some law, explain how that affects -you-. If something is changed in a textbook, why is that in opposition to -your purposes-? I'd love to know how it became 'your' entertainment in the first place, and you have still yet to point out how it hurts -you-.
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There's no way you can tell me it's ok for a public school to teach gay rights.
ny more than you can tell me it's ok that they should be denied rights. If you don't like the subject matter that the other parents have no problem with, homeschool, private school, pull em out of school.
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If you say gayness is not a choice then what else is not a choice? Talk about a slippery slope.
You need some examples of causation for a slippery slope but anyways...It's not on my say so. Science shows us examples in nature, hence it is natural. How about your parents? An outtie belly button? Webbed feet? Cancer? Straight or curly hair? Boy or girl? etc etc etc etc
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 12 Aug 2008 21:40 |
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Here's what I really want to get to with you on the whole gay thing.
Does the bible tell you that being gay is a sin or that sexual acts are a sin? If it's strictly that being gay is a sin, please quote book and chapter and verse. That chestnut about a man lusting in his heart won't cut it either, as that doesn't pinpoint gays specifically.
After you finish that task, show me why your way of wanting to keep them 'in their place' either respects and adheres to or has the authority to bypass 'hate the sin, love the sinner'.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Aug 2008 04:41 |
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The only thing that keeps it going is the incessant need of the religious right to control everyone. who exactly am I trying to control again? Apparently I'm doing a pretty lousy job.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 13 Aug 2008 16:02 |
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who exactly am I trying to control again?
You are the whole religious right or just a spokesman?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Aug 2008 16:29 |
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Old Testament where we are under the law. This is the era where God does not fool around.
This chapter deals with all kinds of sexual sins.
Leviticus 20
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Deuteronomy 23
17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
New Testament Jesus takes the death penalty for sinners and ushers in the age of grace. Basically all those that accept that Christ paid the penalty for our sins get eternal life. God in the age of grace doesn't call for immediate punishment of sin like in the old testament.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God
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After you finish that task, show me why your way of wanting to keep them 'in their place' either respects and adheres to or has the authority to bypass 'hate the sin, love the sinner'. This suggests they have no control over their actions once again. It also suggests that I believe they can't be saved by Jesus which is also incorrect. Anybody who accepts Christ as savior and turns away from their sin is welcome to join my church.
The argument isn't against individuals. It's against a wicked vile political movement that is pushing it's way into everyone's life via school, politicians, and the mass media. When I read on the net people going along with it. I feel I should make sure people realize everybody doesn't agree with it. I'm a rebel that way. Just can't go with the flow I guess. There's a lot more people that agree with me by the way. They just don't voice their opinions as much for fear of persecution. Nobody likes to be hammered as a bigot for simply disagreeing with a political movement.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 13 Aug 2008 17:39 |
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13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Condemns two individuals for a particular act, not for being gay in the first place. Some folks actually believe this is a crime because of the low value of women in the book-to treat a man like a woman in any way shape or form is a crime.
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There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.
This, by itself, says there won't be any Jewish whores or homosexuals. If someone were to show you one of each it would fall apart. This doesn't criminalize them or any deed by itself, it just says there won't be any.
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New Testament Jesus takes the death penalty for sinners and ushers in the age of grace
At least you don't have to dirty your hands with stoning all those bad people to death. Thank the heavens. It was so nice of him to provide a hell instead to threaten all the heathens with. What a class act.
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It's against a wicked vile political movement that is pushing it's way into everyone's life via school, politicians, and the mass media.
I completely agree about the religious right.
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__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Aug 2008 17:46 |
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I'm gonna devote this to, 'Just answer the question' to keep the dance moves down a bit.
How is being homosexual or having an attraction to someone of the same sex an action?
Since you don't have to stone them to death anymore, why would being around or being exposed to a gay person in a story keep you from God?
Why does ANYONE who is decidedly not a Christian have to obey Christian rules in secular society?
Why do you not have to follow the letter of that book yourself but others do according to your version of it?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Aug 2008 18:08 |
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Also-something I couldn't put my finger on with what you said about Jesus taking away the death penalty. It's not really my book, but I went and looked it up just the same.
From Matthew:
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5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The fun thing here for me is to point out that you saying Jesus took away the death penalty is a complete and total lie. Something tells me you wouldn't lie outright as that's breaking one of the Big Ten. That same something tells me you wouldn't allow yourself to be deceived as this puts you at odds with that very citation from Corinthians you just did, thereby still preventing you entry to Heaven even under the new, improved savior. Maybe it's that idea of objective morality you deny even the existence of but still employ when you'd say that it's ok to tell a small enough lie if you can get someone to accept Jesus. You thought I would just take the line about Jesus at face value, not give any thought to it and maybe be saved by that lie and that makes it ok? It's not and it doesn't-please don't treat me like an idiot again. Go pray for forgiveness. I'll think about it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Aug 2008 19:29 |
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You know half of what you said I have a real hard time following.
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5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The Bible says, our righteousness is like filthy rags in God's sight. I think the point Jesus was making here is that our righteousness would have to exceed what the best pharisee was capable of. These guys were all about works. It's impossible to work your way to heaven.
John 3:16 You know that one right?
For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus took our place on Calvary. The death penalty for us is death in Hell, but God looked at the sacrifice of Christ on the cross as payment for our sins. The only catch is to accept that and accept Jesus. God doesn't push himself on anybody.
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Condemns two individuals for a particular act, not for being gay in the first place. Look you asked for me to show it to you from the Bible. There it is. No need to get silly. You know where I'm coming from as I've said a million times I don't believe somebody is gay by birth. I believe it is a action. But as for a person having gay feelings. Jesus did say that if you lust in your heart you are guilty of adultery just the same. So that would I'm sure include having gay thoughts.
And say I didn't write the Bible. I just believe it. You have problems with the content. Take up it up with the author, and no it wasn't just a bunch of old guys. God just used men to pin down his thoughts on Earth for him.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 13 Aug 2008 21:21 |
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No need to get silly
When I have to go by your interpretation, or read it a certain way prescribed by you, or you change around meanings or intents of what is actually on the page, that is not the word of the bible much less the word of any god, that is strictly -your- word. That is you putting your word above your god's word or the blasphemous attempt to speak for him. No need to get silly indeed. Great advice.
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I don't believe somebody is gay by birth.
An atheist doesn't believe in your god. Does God go away simply because of it? I would think you would laugh that off automatically. It's that same process and fallacy that makes your argument fail.
To quote Aldous Huxley- 'facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored'.
We have more facts and evidence for homosexuality being inherant and natural in living creatures than your god's existence. You can vote on reality all you like and reality is not affected in the slightest. If it is in fact inherant in some individuals of the human species than not only does it not remain a moral issue but you have a new and actual argument against evolution. Lose the voting.
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I think the point Jesus was making here is that our righteousness would have to exceed what the best pharisee was capable of.
The point Jesus was making right there is that every last bit of rules set forth in scripture, to the smallest and stupidest little one had better be obeyed until all the prophesies come true. The bit about the pharissees would probably be their lack of adherance to the laws by just pretending to be law abiding. Read it again.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 13 Aug 2008 21:41 |
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For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus took our place on Calvary. The death penalty for us is death in Hell, but God looked at the sacrifice of Christ on the cross as payment for our sins. The only catch is to accept that and accept Jesus. God doesn't push himself on anybody.
I really had to tackle this all by itself. Funny funny stuff.
Here's some more questions to add to the list you missed or avoided from above.
Why would the all powerful creator of the universe have to have his son born as a regular human and not just use the same trick he did with Adam?
Why would he have had only one son?
Why is it at all special he sacrificed his one child when he could have made as many as he likes?
Why call it a sacrifice if all it was in fact was a long weekend after which Jesus got up and just ascended straight to heaven?
If you believe in the trinity, how is it that god needed to send himself to be born to Mary just to sacrifice himself, to himself, to pay for sins that will come about as a result of rules that he himself made up, to forgive US for OUR sins when all he had to do as a beneficent creator was just forgive us without all the creative storytelling? How do you even believe this stupidity, if you believe in the trinity in the first place?
Lets not forget these either.
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Since you don't have to stone them to death anymore, why would being around or being exposed to a gay person in a story keep you from God?
Why does ANYONE who is decidedly not a Christian have to obey Christian rules in secular society?
Why do you not have to follow the letter of that book yourself but others do according to your version of it?
Also, as a final note:
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God just used men to pin down his thoughts on Earth for him.
There is not a religion with it's own text that doesn't say the exact same thing about their one true god or their one true book. This is a meaningless statement because of just that. It is actually worse for any Christian group to use that old chestnut though. At last count, I have heard there are approximately 33,000 different religious groups based on that one true book-the king james version of the bible. That's over 6,000 possible small descrepencies per page? That's insane. It's all insulting to call it the one true anything if it can be used to justify not only all those different sects and cults but the things each of them do might not be as wholesome and good as a good Christian should be.
In case you think I pulled that number out of thin air:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a106.htm
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 14 Aug 2008 02:11 |
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But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14
Next topic, please
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 14 Aug 2008 03:19 |
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Next topic, please
Why not get this over with, here and now so it stops coming back around and around and around? If we just stop here, a couple of days or weeks will go by and then we'll be right back here again whether it's over the war, politics, the election, comics or some random news story. We keep coming back to the same spots because they don't get settled in the first place.
Now, those questions are not trickery on my part. I was hoping for some serious answers. I'd be happy if you answered them as well or even for him.
Tim, if you want to stop here, that's fine too. I won't kick up a fuss over it but I hope that if we do stop here, it does indeed stop here.
Let me know guys.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 14 Aug 2008 04:42 |
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I've never particularly felt that my job was to make God's case for him, that's why I generally stay out of the way of your discussions in these topics , in spite of being the preacher man.
These issues wont be settled because your issue isn't with Tim or myself. Your issue is with God. Please don't read that to mean that I think you have 'issues'; don't we all? What I mean is that this conversation that you have with us, ultimately you are going to have to have with God. And it is a conversation that will take place on His terms.Quote:
..for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6
The Bible is a strange book, absolutely the most unusual book I have ever read. It is a book that claims to be alive and reading you while you are reading it.Quote:
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12 And although you have proven yourself to be a very quick-witted, intelligent and studious individual, the ultimate key that unlocks the understanding of God is God personally revealing himself to you. You can read and study until your eyeballs fall out but until God in his grace decides to give you some understanding, you won't get it.
I say this as a matter of scriptural fact as well as the testimony of my own life, not having become a Christian until I was an adult and having gorged myself on a fair amount of anti-Biblical literature prior to my conversion.
What else can I say? At some point the discussion becomes not one of actually wanting answers but rather a matter of Quote:
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 2 Timothy 2:23 Quote:
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:9
What you call 'stupid' I call my life's work. Now, I'm a big kid, I can take it, but at some point it just gets boring , and will probably never get settled to everyone's satisfaction. So why bother?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 14 Aug 2008 05:11 |
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So why bother?
It's the settling for simple answers that causes some problems between disparate groups. It's the steadfast adherance to those answers just to be secure in them that causes further problems. It's the ability for those answers, whether to be forced on others or to keep secure in them by attacking opposing ones, regardless of fact or evidence, that life hangs in the balance on.
I don't think you, Tim, any holy text or your life's work is stupid. Please think a little better of me than this. When I point out what I see to be a contradiction or flaw in reasoning with an idea or ideal that is forced on me, I really am defending myself and will take whatever necessary measures I have to in accomplishing that. At the same time I do recognize them as what they are-ideas and ideals. I recognize that religions exist on people trying to do good things and be good people at the same time I see them often getting (what I feel to be) misled, which in turn is what I see someone trying to do to me. It comes full circle. Having said all that, I also want to add, I'm still learning, just like you. I'm trying to get my head around this faith thing, the big questions, morality, science, life&death, relationships, money, my goals and aspirations and dreams, etc etc etc.
The way I see it is this: There are people who find happiness in their faith(I can't say this about all the faithful-I'm sure you'd agree). While I can't adhere to that faith myself, I can still seek behaviors to model from people in it. While I can see so many errors and contradictions in holy texts I can see also artistic, noble and philosophical ideas as well. It's never all black and white and we are all apologists at the end of the day.
I'm a logical romantic, this is what we do.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 14 Aug 2008 06:55 |
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Thought this would be a perfect place for a little reminder of why some of us do what we do in whatever particular aspect.
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The version inscribed at the New England Holocaust Memorial in Boston, Massachusetts reads:
They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 14 Aug 2008 19:11 |
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Look pak, I love to discuss my faith in Christ. I love to try and understand how it is that you believe what you believe, but in order to do so in the most efficient manner let us start trying to focus on one or two points at a time.
I'm not complaining. At least I hope it doesn't sound like I am, but it would really be better for me and you I think to try and take one thing at a time in this debate.
Let me take this one on you mentioned.
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Why call it a sacrifice if all it was in fact was a long weekend after which Jesus got up and just ascended straight to heaven? Jesus was in heaven. He existed along with the Father always. He left heaven to come to earth at a time where there was no air conditioner. No indoor plumbing. No cars. He left heaven to ultimately suffer a very painful and agonizing death on a cross. Why because God's sense of justice demanded that there be a punishment for sin, but God's love made a way for the punishment to be taken on by himself to save us from that punishment. I know it doesn't necessarily make sense to someone that doesn't believe in God to start with, but just imagine how a perfect God, a holy God would be able to stay true to his nature and still make a way to protect his creation whom He dearly loved.
Just to show that Jesus was there at the beginning of time. In Genesis it says
GE 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 14 Aug 2008 19:48 Last Edited By: pakratmak |
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GE 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
I have to point out that there are some 'experts' on the subject who suggest that this was in reference to your God being one of numerous gods in existence at that time, at least according to that particular author. This might sound like a rediculous explanation, but I thought I'd jot it down here just to point out the (almost necessary)need of the reader to interpret the material instead of just relying on what's on the page.
There is a book called 'Lost Christianities' by Bart Ehrman which tackles this and other subjects you might be interested in.
From Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faith ...
I'll say clearly that my whole line of reasoning in this thread was to address the notion of my being immoral(or anyone outside your faith for that matter) simply because I didn't get my morals from the bible. The natural logic step from there being that morals can -only- be gotten from the bible, which is absolutely false. The final leg of that becomes some soft of snobbery toward the people its directed at/against. Its the common acceptance and misleading practice of keeping someone in their place, even if its just by an opinion of them. This is where prejudices and bogtries and social injustice all stem from-the clash of assumption and differing opinion. We can all do a little bit more in preventing further damages and losses.
All of everything I said here was getting back to that one point(with the minor exception of the issue it originally sprang from) of morality.
I can appreciate handling one topic at a time so long as we handle these things to fruition finally. We can't keep coming back to the same flareups because one of us refuses to acknowledge the other(measure of guilt for both of us to be fair), and expect to be entertained or learn anything or even create anything by doing and thinking the same things over and over and over. Then it really does become, 'why bother?'
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 14 Aug 2008 20:45 |
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Ok so let me have it. One thing at a time.
By the way that book that claims Genesis was referring to more than one god sounds nuts to me. All through the Bible one of the main points is there is only one God accepting for false gods that were made by the hands of men.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 14 Aug 2008 21:42 |
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I think you'd be pretty surprised at alot of the things suggested by historical findings. I'm gonna pass the easy swing at the nuts comment.
The most important of my questions is why any form or Christianity has to be imposed on the rest of our secular society. For instance, to harken back to where this started from, your bible condemns homosexuality-why should the rest of us follow suit?
On that same note(by extension-they are connected to me), as a heathen, I've heard the consequences of denying the holy spirit and Jesus as my savior and have accepted this as the consequence of what happens if I'm wrong with my use of 'free will'. I respect your right to practice your religion and all that might entail as long as it does not infringe on my 'rights'.(I can't think of a really polite way to put this, I'm trying) Why do I have to respect someone else's beliefs, especially when they don't respect mine?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 15 Aug 2008 15:35 |
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Quote:
The most important of my questions is why any form or Christianity has to be imposed on the rest of our secular society I've never implied that Christianity should be imposed on anyone by the law if that's what you mean. I certainly don't want gay rights and other liberal values imposed on me. Thus our conflict I suppose.
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your bible condemns homosexuality-why should the rest of us follow suit? Take out the fact that I'm just mainly concerned with getting over ran by this big lib gay movement. I simply try my best to care about what happens to other people. Sometimes when you start to care too much about what goes on, I guess you can get angry and pushy. So maybe Christians come across that way sometimes, but the fact is underneath that emotion is a desire to help others.
See I really believe you do people, and I mean anybody, a disservice when you tell them they don't have a choice in life. Talk about psychologically damaging. How man people fall into one hurtful lifestyle or another just by being around others that are in that lifestyle? And when they get in there, how many people will actually believe they can't choose to get out even if they want to because somebody told them that once gay always gay?
Have you even considered the possibility that a lot of people just really don't know what they are doing?
Bottom line from our discussion is that I cannot accept the idea that someone has their choice stripped from them, and by telling them they don't have a choice some people are actually going to believe that. Would you yourself ever tell another human being that has been living as gay that they shouldn't ever change because they are born that way? Even if that person was unhappy?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 15 Aug 2008 16:43 |
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Thus our conflict I suppose.
Absolutely. You have implied to me that you do want certain things to be a part of society at large which are strictly Christian concerns or a direct result of them. When you tell me the country started going downhill because prayer was banned in public schools, that's an implication and an undeserved correlation. When you tell me the story of creation has to be put side by side with science in a science class, same thing. Telling me gays shouldn't be allowed to marry because of either the 'traditional' definition or removing a law based on Christian underpinnings is wrong, would be the same implication.
In the last case, you have an issue with removing a prohibition that arguably shouldn't have been a law in the first place if it was based on any religion, part or whole. Keeping said law is actually, at least to me, imposing Christian values on society.
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I simply try my best to care about what happens to other people.
I do recognize that in a lot of people, Christian and otherwise. I'm sure your intentions are well meaning. The thing is, to protect other people from something, you need an actual threat or danger to begin with. I see the imagined effect of being around gay people that you present, and from personal experience, being around them does not make you one-to go further, it might actually make you not want to live that way. An example:
I liken this to when your parents have a hobby. Let's say your father loves the game of chess. You might actually pick up a taste for the game from him. Depending on your relationship with your dad, you might hate the game without ever trying it. However, there's a third option you might not be taking into account. Your dad loving that game might not even be something you take notice of. You might someday have the game brought to your attention and have to choose for yourself based on the game's merits alone and whether or not you actually want to try it based on your preferences alone. The game of chess posed no threat itself in any of those case.
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Have you even considered the possibility that a lot of people just really don't know what they are doing?
Absolutely. Is that a license to prevent them from exposure to something when they have absolutely no connection to you except for being in the same society?
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Would you yourself ever tell another human being that has been living as gay that they shouldn't ever change because they are born that way?
You're still implying a choice where there probably isn't one and some sort of threat they pose with no evident consequence of harm to absolutely anybody else or themselves.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 15 Aug 2008 18:00 |
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Quote:
You're still implying a choice where there probably isn't one and some sort of threat they pose with no evident consequence of harm to absolutely anybody else or themselves. You still didn't answer the question.
And there most definitely is a threat. Let's a man has been happily married for 10 and has children. You don't see a threat if he suddenly started to believe the lie that he was gay and had no choice but to leave his wife and kids. It's happened. Different factors like people brought into a person's life, societal opinions etc could cause a man like that to abandon his family. And yes it would be bad if it was a woman he left his family for as well. The point being all choices have consequences. And this is just one example. Everything we do effects people around us especially people in our families.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 15 Aug 2008 18:39 Last Edited By: pakratmak |
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You still didn't answer the question.
Unless its what follows this statement, I believe I missed the question you want answered.
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And there most definitely is a threat. Let's a man has been happily married for 10 and has children. You don't see a threat if he suddenly started to believe the lie that he was gay and had no choice but to leave his wife and kids.
You're loading the question and poisoning the well at the same time here. If this guy has been happily married, I don't see any reason whatsoever he would even consider changing that. Let's say he does consider his feelings and takes an interest in other guys all of a sudden-he was probably not happy in that marriage. He also would probably hide that unhappiness at the thought of being shamed with it and just stay in that ever-increasingly loveless marriage, and this all hinges on him even considering a gay lifestyle, which is a whole other discussion. As for the being gay being a lie, one could argue the marriage was a sham because he had been lying to himself the whole time he denied what he was.
You are suggesting that breaking up a marriage is a reasonable 'threat' to fight what exactly? Are you saying that by hiding all images and references of gay behavior in all media that a person would not even have it cross their mind and couldn't think of it on their own? Which do you think would affect someone who could be that easily swayed by just being around it more> (a)seeing a gay person in a comic book or (b)realizing they're having some sort of reaction to another real human? Would you rather be married to; Lois Lane or your real life wife?
That aside, you might be saying that gayness breaks up marriages. You might have something there, I couldn't argue with the possibility of that happening. There's a couple problems with this being a threat still. Alot of things can break up a marriage. Money, lack of sexual activity, poor communication, lack of trust, gambling, drugs, infidelity of other sorts, alcoholism, workaholism etc etc etc. With the exception of some drugs, none of those have laws preventing them. Marriages only have a supposed survival rate of about 50% right now-do you really want to scapegoat that all off on the chance of a temptation to the other team?
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Everything we do effects people around us especially people in our families.
Could not agree more. I'll even go further to say that society does indeed suffer from the poor odds and stability of modern marriages, as one very pointed example.
Your championing of marriage and protectiveness of society as an ideal are admirable but skewed, blown up for effect and personal concerns-not societal concerns to the level you portray them. You still have to show an actual threat of danger or harm to an individual, that would convince me on secular terms, why I should have a single cautionary thought about gay characters in media or gay people in society. Please show some actual harm instead of rhetorical or anecdotal testimony.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 15 Aug 2008 19:54 |
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So you wouldn't consider the home of a family to be something worth protecting? I have to tell you something. Not only do I believe we all have choices. I believe we have to choose to love someone. Yes that's right, choose. There's no magical, "whoops," I'm in love, and "whoops" I'm out of love spell.
That's why people keep getting divorced so much these days. They keep coming up with reasons to justify deserting their spouse.
Apparently you believe that all humans are slaves to some inner mechanisms that totally control our every move. Perhaps all things then are justified by emotions, and inner sexual desires if I follow your logic to it's conclusion.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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