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| Posted: 02 Sep 2008 16:23 |
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you alreeady said she doesn't want to be saved, so obviously she has no intention of ever cleaing up her act.
I also said she could justify her actions which would mean she doesn't feel the need to clean up anything. We are talking about morality. Right now we're talking about how one size does not fit all. As a side note, I don't believe for a second that you need to get saved to clean up your act-but I thought I already made that clear when I talked about quitting smoking.
Tim:
I can't even respond to anything new until you stop evading these.
Can you prove this wrong?:
A proper moral action is one that that advances, upholds or secures values of creation, growth or well-being, even to the extent of sacrificing a lesser but decidedly positive value.
A negative moral action is one that will knowingly cause a result of some measurable loss or destruction for the purpose of some known personal gain.
Can you prove yourself right with this?
Just point out a moral act that a Christian can accomplish and a non-Christian simply cannot do.
Can you provide any evidence to this?
The moral code is from which sources? Do you mean the Bible is the only source or can other holy texts offer the same moral code? Does it have to be a holy text at all as the sole source of any moral code?
----------------------------------------
Let me help this along. You guys need to stop being selfish.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 02 Sep 2008 18:46 |
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I also said she could justify her actions which would mean she doesn't feel the need to clean up anything. We are talking about morality.
Who cares how she feels?! I am talking about morality, YOU are talking about her feelings. Also, you are hinting that to the woman, what she is doing she herself may not consider wrong. Even when you say atheists can still determine the difference between right and wrong. Besides, you haven't even said why she would stop being a prostitute (considering moral reasons). I said that she can do the right thing with the help of God.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 02 Sep 2008 19:33 |
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Who cares how she feels?!
She does. Stop being selfish.
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you are hinting that to the woman, what she is doing she herself may not consider wrong
I'm not hinting-I'm saying it outright. She does not consider her prostitution as something wrong. We do-she doesn't. Stop being selfish.
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you haven't even said why she would stop being a prostitute (considering moral reasons).
She doesn't intend to stop. She has no reason to as of yet. Stop being selfish.
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I said that she can do the right thing with the help of God.
People can also do wrong things with the help of God. People can also do right or wrong with Allah or Yehovah or Buddha(though it's really really hard to go wrong with Buddha). People can do right or wrong without any sort of religious backing whatsoever. This is a main sticking point we keep glancing past. Stop being selfish.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 02 Sep 2008 21:39 |
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She does not consider her prostitution as something wrong. We do-she doesn't.
Oh, and I thought from what you said that atheists can arrive at the same conclusions about right and wrong as we do. Christians in general find the act of prostitution as a terrible sin, while atheists can vary on this issue.
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She doesn't intend to stop. She has no reason to as of yet.
That's right!! She has no reason to stop! She lacks a basis for moral foundation and if she had found God she would not have continued to follow this destructive lifestyle. But because she doesn't believe in God she will continue going down hill.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 02 Sep 2008 22:03 |
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I thought from what you said that atheists can arrive at the same conclusions about right and wrong as we do.
Please don't mistake conclusions for values. I didn't mean to mislead, if I did in fact mislead. We can both decide something is right or wrong based on different values-as a matter of fact, we have to.
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She lacks a basis for moral foundation
Stop....Being.....Selfish.
She has a firm moral foundation that is different than yours and mine. Just because you or I think something is wrong does not make it immoral for everyone or anyone else.
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But because she doesn't believe in God she will continue going down hill.
Who said she was going down hill in the first place?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 02 Sep 2008 22:56 |
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Just because you or I think something is wrong does not make it immoral for everyone or anyone else.
That makes what she is doing okay, right?
People making their own rules. How "moral" is that?
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Who said she was going down hill in the first place?
I did.
Again Pack Rat, you are ignoring the point. She is doing soemthing that is very wrong (and don't try to tell me again that its okay because she thinks its right; it doesn't work that way) because she lacks a proper moral foundation. If she had been saved she would not be on this path.
So stop being ignorant.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 02 Sep 2008 23:26 |
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People making their own rules. How "moral" is that?
You tell me. You decided your own rules just like the rest of us. You don't get to decide for everyone what is wrong or right-neither do I.
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She is doing soemthing that is very wrong
It's not wrong to her. It's wrong to you and me, but not her.
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because she lacks a proper moral foundation.
That's not up to you to decide.
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you are ignoring the point.
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If she had been saved she would not be on this path.
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So stop being ignorant.
Take your own advice. Not everyone is out to be saved, or needs to be saved. Thats something YOU need, something YOU have decided YOU must follow in order to gain something for yourself.
I have no delusion about going to heaven or even trying to get there or going to hell or trying to avoid going there, and neither does the hooker. This would seem to inform all of your decisions-if this is not true, point out how so.
So if we're not planning on going to heaven or avoiding hell, why on earth should we follow your path, accept your restrictions or values, or make decisions connected in any fashion to how you live your life? This is what you keep getting hung up on. We're not trying to go to heaven or avoid going to hell-for us to do anything correct or proper or moral or altruistic we need OTHER reasons-other motivations, other values, a conscious knowledge of how what we do affects others, awareness of other consequences and/or rewards, etc.
Your absolute rule list fails on several levels.
I'll leave it there now, for your response.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 02:20 |
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I have no delusion about going to heaven or even trying to get there or going to hell or trying to avoid going there, and neither does the hooker.
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So if we're not planning on going to heaven or avoiding hell, why on earth should we follow your path, accept your restrictions or values, or make decisions connected in any fashion to how you live your life?
You're absolutely right. Then there is no reason why the prostitute should try to live a moral life at all. No reason at all.
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You tell me. You decided your own rules just like the rest of us.
No, I'm using rules that were set for me. Rules set by God.
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It's not wrong to her. It's wrong to you and me, but not her.
Yeah. Its not wrong to her, so it is OK for her to do that. Right?
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 02:46 |
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Then there is no reason why the prostitute should try to live a moral life at all.
I am sorry this is so hard for you. It shouldn't be.
She's not doing anything immoral.
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No, I'm using rules that were set for me. Rules set by God.
Your rules. Not mine or the hooker's.
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Its not wrong to her, so it is OK for her to do that. Right?
That's correct.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 02:53 |
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I have had people, mostly fundamental Christians tell me time and again that I could not possibly have any morals, why would I? You know, Pak, I've been chewing on this statement, and I don't know what sort of people you have been hanging around with, but in 13 years in the ministry and having dealt with probably thousands of individuals, I have yet to say this to anyone or hear anyone else say it. Keep in mind I'm not doubting the veracity of your words, but it seems odd that it would happen over and over again.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 03:28 |
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it seems odd that it would happen over and over again.
It's happened a couple of times right in this thread. Steve and Tim both appear to still hold on to this as well.
For you Steve
Excerpted from Robert G. Ingersoll's essay:What Would You Substitute
for the Bible as a Moral Guide?
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What is morality?
In this world we need certain things. We have many wants. We are exposed to many dangers. We need food, fuel, raiment and shelter, and besides these wants, there is, what may be called, the hunger of the mind.
We are conditioned beings, and our happiness depends upon conditions. There are certain things that diminish, certain things that increase, well-being. There are certain things that destroy and there are others that preserve.
Happiness, including its highest forms, is after all the only good, and everything, the result of which is to produce or secure happiness, is good, that is to say, moral. Everything that destroys or diminishes well-being is bad, that is to say, immoral. In other words, all that is good is moral, and all that is bad is immoral.
What then is, or can be called, a moral guide? The shortest possible answer is one word: Intelligence.
We want the experience of mankind, the true history of the race. We want the history of intellectual development, of the growth of the ethical, of the idea of justice, of conscience, of charity, of self-denial. We want to know the paths and roads that have been traveled by the human mind.
These facts in general, these histories in outline, the results reached, the conclusions formed, the principles evolved, taken together, would form the best conceivable moral guide.
We cannot depend on what are called "inspired books," or the religions of the world. These religions are based on the supernatural, and according to them we are under obligation to worship and obey some supernatural being, or beings. All these religions are inconsistent with intellectual liberty. They are the enemies of thought, of investigation, of mental honesty. They destroy the manliness of man. They promise eternal rewards for belief, for credulity, for what they call faith.
This is not only absurd, but it is immoral.
These religions teach the slave virtues. They make inanimate things holy, and falsehoods sacred. They create artificial crimes. To eat meat on Friday, to enjoy yourself on Sunday, to eat on fast-days, to be happy in Lent, to dispute a priest, to ask for evidence, to deny a creed, to express your sincere thought, all these acts are sins, crimes against some god, To give your honest opinion about Jehovah, Mohammed or Christ, is far worse than to maliciously slander your neighbor. To question or doubt miracles. is far worse than to deny known facts. Only the obedient, the credulous, the cringers, the kneelers, the meek, the unquestioning, the true believers, are regarded as moral, as virtuous. It is not enough to be honest, generous and useful; not enough to be governed by evidence, by facts. In addition to this, you must believe. These things are the foes of morality. They subvert all natural conceptions of virtue.
All "inspired books," teaching that what the supernatural commands is right, and right because commanded, and that what the supernatural prohibits is wrong, and wrong because prohibited, are absurdly unphilosophic.
And all "inspired books," teaching that only those who obey the commands of the supernatural are, or can be, truly virtuous, and that unquestioning faith will be rewarded with eternal joy, are grossly immoral.
Again I say: Intelligence is the only moral guide.
Taken from:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/inginfid.htm
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 14:41 |
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If intelligence is the moral guide for you pak, how could you say prostitution is moral?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 16:17 |
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Last chance at these Tim. I put them first so I know you read them.
Can you prove this wrong? No answer again will then make it an admission by omission.
A proper moral action is one that that advances, upholds or secures values of creation, growth or well-being, even to the extent of sacrificing a lesser but decidedly positive value.
A negative moral action is one that will knowingly cause a result of some measurable loss or destruction for the purpose of some known personal gain.
Can you prove yourself right with this? No answer again will then make this an admission as well.
Just point out a moral act that a Christian can accomplish and a non-Christian simply cannot do.
I won't even push for the evidence part here. I'm beginning to feel like I'm attacking you and that was never the purpose or intent. I always answer questions when they come my way-I'm hoping for the same respect from you.
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If intelligence is the moral guide for you pak, how could you say prostitution is moral?
It's not moral for me and it's not immoral for her.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 16:43 |
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Just point out a moral act that a Christian can accomplish and a non-Christian simply cannot do. I never said or meant to say however the case may be that a non-Christian couldn't act morally. I just pointed out the ultimate source of morality is the Bible.
I understand a moral action to be more about right and wrong than about what the consequences are. Although you'll find most immoral actions listed as sin in the Bible usually come with consequences.
Prostitution being look upon as an immoral act is simple common sense I would think.
from wikipedia under prostitution
data on why prostitution is harmful
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Female prostitutes are at risk of violent crime,[14] as well as possibly at higher risk of occupational mortality than any other group of women ever studied. For example, the homicide rate for female prostitutes was estimated to be 204 per 100,000 (Potterat et al, 2004), which is considerably higher than that for the next riskiest occupations in the United States during a similar period (4 per 100,000 for female liquor store workers and 29 per 100,000 for male taxicab drivers) (Castillo et al., 1994). However, there are substantial differences in rates of victimization between street prostitutes and indoor prostitutes who work as escorts, call girls, or in brothels and massage parlors (Weitzer 2000, 2005). Perpetrators include violent clients, pimps, and corrupt law-enforcement officers. Prostitutes (particularly those engaging in street prostitution) are also sometimes the targets of serial killers, who may consider them easy targets
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Prostitution is associated with the spread of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) such as HIV:
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HIV is tied to prostitution in Africa, with one study finding that encounters with prostitutes produced 84% of new HIV infections in adult males in Accra, Ghana.[20] The spread of HIV from urban settings to rural areas in Africa has been attributed to the mobility of farmers who visit sex workers in cities, for example in Ethiopia.[21] Studies in urban settings of prostitution in developing countries have shown a striking burden of STDs, which acts as a reservoir of STDs within the general population.
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Feminists who believe that prostitution is inherently exploitative, such as authors like Andrea Dworkin, herself an ex-prostitute, argued in the 1980s that commercial sex is a form of rape enforced by poverty (and often overt violence by pimps)
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 17:08 |
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Prostitution being look upon as an immoral act is simple common sense I would think.
It is simple common sense to you and me. A woman who does it of her own free will, must see things differently than you or me. I'm as well aware of the dangers present to them as the quotes you provided describe. When you start considering worst case scenarios, the mind works wonders. Those quotes and my imagination and the Bible do not speak for everyone however.
Consider that a person who does not adhere to Christian rules, will not base their values or make decisions based on any concept of sin or consequence thereof. Their ideas of right and wrong and their morality are not measured by Biblical standards.
Consider that inherant dangers themselves are not a moral concern but one of personal safety. There are countless jobs that require personal risk, which is that person's choice to make. We cannot make that choice for them.
How could she possibly not see this as immoral? It's just a job to her. She's merely charging for something she used to give away. Sex isn't some holy ordained rigid process of furthering the species to her, it's just something people do and something guys pay well for. There's probably a long list of justifications, but that's basically up to the individual-I just don't know them all.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 17:46 |
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If her safety, the Bible, and perhaps even the future of her children, or the effects of her actions upon other families do not represent an immoral act then I give up. Nothing is immoral then. Might as well kill, steal, and run around like animals.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 18:09 |
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perhaps even the future of her children,
She would argue its better to feed her children than not.
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the effects of her actions upon other families
Unless her customer is a married man, you have to provide some sort of evidence to these effects. If her customer is a married man, that's on him for committing the act as he could have just picked up a woman at a bar or found some other way beside her to do it. You might as well blame her for pollution and global warming while you're at it.
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Might as well kill, steal, and run around like animals.
Yes, having sex is exactly like murder and theft....
Running around like animals means....?
Some things you really should look over and become familiar with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_distribution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope_(fallacy)#The_slipper ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_necessity
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 18:44 |
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We were talking about prostitution not just sex.
However "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is one of the 10 commandments which makes it immoral.
Your problem I believe is not knowing the difference between old fashioned morals, and uppity people looking down on poor sinners.
We all are sinners. We all do things wrong. Nobody is perfect. That doesn't mean we should just give up and go with it. If that was the case we'd all be screwed.
If I say prostitution is wrong. That doesn't mean that I hate prostitutes. I'd be doing a prostitute wrong if I lied and said what they were doing was healthy and A-ok. That would be retarded. Being honest is basic love for your fellow man.
Jesus would go to the bad neighborhoods not to condemn, but to offer forgiveness. He would not however, ok the sinful act. You have to know the difference.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 22:34 |
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"Thou shalt not commit adultery"
Adultery is going outside a marriage, which means you have to be in one for this to apply.
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Your problem I believe is not knowing the difference between old fashioned morals,
I don't adhere to 2,000 year old rule lists in the same way I wouldn't stick to a driver's manual from 1960. I don't have a problem here.
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We all are sinners.
Your value, not mine. You need something called a sin to be a sinner.
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Nobody is perfect. That doesn't mean we should just give up and go with it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dichotomy
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If I say prostitution is wrong. That doesn't mean that I hate prostitutes.
Me too. What has this to do with anything?
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I'd be doing a prostitute wrong if I lied and said what they were doing was healthy and A-ok.
They don't need our acceptance or permission. These things are not solely ours to give in the first place.
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Jesus would go...He would not however, ok the sinful act. You have to know the difference.
You and I haven't even left our chairs-would you consider what we're doing here comparable to his work?
If someone does not believe in sin in the firt place, they don't need an ok from anyone to not believe it's a sin-it's already done. You do indeed have to know the difference.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 23:09 |
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If someone does not believe in sin in the firt place, they don't need an ok from anyone to not believe it's a sin-it's already done. You do indeed have to know the difference.
Here we have a major difference in opinion. If a tree falls in a forest does it not make a noise just because someone isn't there to hear it?
A sinful act is still a sinful act regardless of one's opinion.
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 23:24 |
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You still haven't answered his question Tim. I'm on your side on this but I want to see how you get off this limb you climbed out on.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 03 Sep 2008 23:56 |
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If a tree falls in a forest does it not make a noise just because someone isn't there to hear it?
Existentialism? Really? lol 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A9
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A sinful act is still a sinful act regardless of one's opinion.
To call something a sin or sinful is an opinion informed by your values which are informed by your understanding of the Bible. Sin doesn't exist without opinion-it's an abstract. I know you believe this thing to be a sin. I'd like you to figure out that I don't believe in sin myself and I am not alone in this.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 04 Sep 2008 03:34 |
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Pak, I think we both have come to different conclusions about morality. I knew that this argument was hopeless when you agreed that it is okay for the prostitute to continue what she is doing only because she doesn't think its wrong. This means anybody can get away with anything just because they think there's nothing wrong with that. My definition of morality is obviously much different than yours. I believe morals are set rules, while you believe they can be anything anyone wants them to be.
I don't really think we can get any further with this.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 04 Sep 2008 05:56 |
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This means anybody can get away with anything just because they think there's nothing wrong with that.
Actually it doesn't.
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I believe morals are set rules, while you believe they can be anything anyone wants them to be.
What you're failing to grasp is that your morality IS whatever you decide it to be, and that YOUR morality may or may not be correct for the next person-you are not the final word, neither am I, and certainly neither is a book-ANY book. If a Muslim tells you that you are an immoral infidel for not following the laws of Allah-what's your answer to this? Laugh it off because you think you're superior? Would you do the same with a Rabbi who calls you a heretic?
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I don't really think we can get any further with this.
Nobody forced you into the conversation-you know the way out. Just be a little more thoughtful before you tell someone you're not done with them the next time. It's not my fault or problem you're not getting it. Perhaps we'll find some sort of concord on another topic.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 04 Sep 2008 14:40 |
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I think the problem is pak your idea that morality is whatever you want it to be. One really must then conclude that you believe one can do whatever they feel like doing and it's right as long as it feels ok to them.
I don't see how that's even possible that everything is right if it feels ok.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 04 Sep 2008 16:11 |
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I think the problem is pak your idea that morality is whatever you want it to be.
Nobody said it was easy. I even warned about it being tricky. That doesn't mean I'm trying to trick anyone. It means it's not a simple case of having a rules list, or just knowing the difference between right and wrong.
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One really must then conclude that you believe one can do whatever they feel like doing and it's right as long as it feels ok to them.
That's not a conclusion from anything I've said here. You had that coming in to this already. You've said the same or something similar on multiple occasions. Nothing I've said led you or anyone else there.
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I don't see how that's even possible that everything is right if it feels ok.
I don't either. We weren't talking about 'everything'. We were talking about morality not being one size fits all. We were talking about the specific of a hooker not taking moral issue with prostitution. Then there was also the tricky part of what she's doing not being immoral to her, even when it is to me or Steve or you. This wasn't about murder, theft or violence, even though they might have some very strong connections to the subject itself. In her case, and I'm sure many like it, those things are actually not an issue.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 04 Sep 2008 17:15 |
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In simple terms what does something have to be before you call it immoral?
How does a atheist create moral lines?
I had thought you believed anything that was harmful to someone was immoral. Thus prostitution would fit into that category.
Now if you personally feel prostitution is immoral, why do you feel it's immoral properties actually change for the prostitute herself if she feels differently?
That's like saying 2 plus 2 is 4 for me, but it can be 5 for the prostitute if she feels that it is.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 04 Sep 2008 17:41 |
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In simple terms what does something have to be before you call it immoral?
This might look familiar.
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A negative moral action is one that will knowingly cause a result of some measurable loss or destruction for the purpose of some known personal gain.
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How does a atheist create moral lines?
And this might look familiar as well.
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A proper moral action is one that that advances, upholds or secures values of creation, growth or well-being, even to the extent of sacrificing a lesser but decidedly positive value.
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Thus prostitution would fit into that category.
We have that value of it being destructive for whichever reasons we possess. The prostitute does not.
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Now if you personally feel prostitution is immoral, why do you feel it's immoral properties actually change for the prostitute herself if she feels differently?
Finally, a decent question. I knew you had it in you. 
First off-the immoral 'properties' are not inherant to it. It's like how the commandment says not to kill, but we obviously know there are times when we must kill-whether that's animals for food, a time of war, self defense or any other reason where it's not a case of destruction solely for personal gain. We have to decide by our personal values if something is immoral or not-case by case. You say you get your morals from the Bible-what you mean to say is you get some of your values from it. You had to develop your own morals after you developed your values and learned how to apply them to events. You went through the same process every other human goes through. The only difference between you and someone else acting morally is actually how you can reach the same moral judgement-where your values are set at.
As for the pro? You guys never asked a single detail about her. The only things I told you are that she's a single mom with two kids. Your brain jumped in and painted the rest of the picture. She's not one of those trashbag dumpster hos you see on TV. She works at a legal brothel in Nevada.
I'll leave that there for now. I want to see if you can get your head around what I've said so far. Matter of fact, you can make up a list of questions for her if you like, to get to know or understand her better. I can use the practice writing dialog anyways.
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2 plus 2 is 4 for me, but it can be 5 for the prostitute if she feels that it is.
Numbers are a physical reality and won't get altered by an individual's perception or values for anyone besides themselves.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 05 Sep 2008 02:10 |
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We cannot depend on what are called "inspired books," or the religions of the world. These religions are based on the supernatural, and according to them we are under obligation to worship and obey some supernatural being, or beings. All these religions are inconsistent with intellectual liberty. They are the enemies of thought, of investigation, of mental honesty. They destroy the manliness of man. They promise eternal rewards for belief, for credulity, for what they call faith.
This is not only absurd, but it is immoral.
These religions teach the slave virtues. They make inanimate things holy, and falsehoods sacred. They create artificial crimes. To eat meat on Friday, to enjoy yourself on Sunday, to eat on fast-days, to be happy in Lent, to dispute a priest, to ask for evidence, to deny a creed, to express your sincere thought, all these acts are sins, crimes against some god, To give your honest opinion about Jehovah, Mohammed or Christ, is far worse than to maliciously slander your neighbor. To question or doubt miracles. is far worse than to deny known facts. Only the obedient, the credulous, the cringers, the kneelers, the meek, the unquestioning, the true believers, are regarded as moral, as virtuous. It is not enough to be honest, generous and useful; not enough to be governed by evidence, by facts. In addition to this, you must believe. These things are the foes of morality. They subvert all natural conceptions of virtue.
All "inspired books," teaching that what the supernatural commands is right, and right because commanded, and that what the supernatural prohibits is wrong, and wrong because prohibited, are absurdly unphilosophic. Aaaawww...isn't he cute? This is that arrogance I was talking about. This gentleman assumes that at the end of the day he's just a wee bit smarter and less backwards than me.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 05 Sep 2008 02:49 |
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This gentleman assumes that at the end of the day he's just a wee bit smarter and less backwards than me.
He does not mention one word about the followers, just what they're following-and he's right.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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