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| Posted: 15 Aug 2008 20:24 |
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So you wouldn't consider the home of a family to be something worth protecting?
I don't see why you would have to protect someone else's home in the first place unless it's your actual job to do so. This still avoids how they're a threat to other individuals.
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I believe we have to choose to love someone.
You are perfectly entitled to your beliefs, as are others. This still has nothing to do with gays being any sort of threat.
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Apparently you believe that all humans are slaves to some inner mechanisms that totally control our every move.
When you say it like that, it sounds a bit sleazy and if you don't believe that your brain, which controls everything else that is 'you' does things of its own volition, you are either misinformed or distorting the truth. Consider if you have to remember to breathe or force yourself not to pee while you're sleeping for two small examples.
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Perhaps all things then are justified by emotions, and inner sexual desires if I follow your logic to it's conclusion.
You've made that jump without much logic and all by yourself-no need blaming me for it.Please get back to where gays are a threat somewhere, somehow.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 15 Aug 2008 20:32 |
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Thought I'd try to get this back on track.
From the onlinedictionary:
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Dictionary: threat (thrĕt)
n.
An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
An indication of impending danger or harm.
One that is regarded as a possible danger; a menace.
tr.v. Archaic., threat·ed, threat·ing, threats.
To threaten.
I can already see the wheels turning on the words menace and evil. To you personally they may be those things and matter of fact, I believe you've said as much. The trick now is to explain how they are a threat to society, not to you personally.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2008 00:37 |
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I'll say clearly that my whole line of reasoning in this thread was to address the notion of my being immoral(or anyone outside your faith for that matter) simply because I didn't get my morals from the bible. I'm not sure if anyone actually said that, but let me address it.
I absolutely agree with you. One can be a very moral person without the influence of any biblical teaching. I have met some extremely kind people who were pagans , agnostics, atheists, etc. Make sure you understand this point. I would not be so foolish to imply or even assume that I am in any way any better or more moral of a person than you. In fact, I am no doubt much more of a scoundrel than you are.
But I would attribute your morality to a number of factors. Obviously upbringing is a huge factor as well as environment. But at the root of it all I believe you have a God-given sense of right and wrong that is part of the basis for God holding you accountable for your actions regardless of whether you ever picked up a Bible or not.
There's a lot more that could be said along this line, but that'll do for now.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2008 05:07 |
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There are philosophers like Kant who say that behaving properly because you believe someone is watching is actually immoral. I'm about 50/50 with this assessment.
It was actually Tim who brought up that simple statement how he got his morals from the bible and I didn't, which is an extension to an unresolved debate we've had had a couple of times over. If I remember correctly, that was actually one of the very motivations of starting this site in the first place. Something with a Superman comic and missionaries, which sparked off me stating I was an atheist in the first place, which led to conversations of a more adult nature than fit for a Superman board and some of the young'ns there.
This is one of the things I referred to when I spoke of unresolved matters that keep coming back around and how its better to actually resolve them.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2008 05:13 |
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I am no doubt much more of a scoundrel than you are.
It kinda saddens me when you talk down on yourself like this preach. If there be some horrible thing you've done, then atone for it already. Find a way to do something which can be the hardest thing to do, forgive yourself. I don't think of you as a cur, wretch or scoundrel. If you just need to hear the words, I forgive you. Life is far too short.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2008 20:16 |
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It kinda saddens me when you talk down on yourself like this preach. Please don't misunderstand me here, I am simply quite aware of my own sinfulness and of the manifold mercy God has shown towards me. I don't go around with my head down.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2008 20:16 |
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If there be some horrible thing you've done, then atone for it already That was taken care of at Calvary.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2008 20:39 |
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Consider if you have to remember to breathe or force yourself not to pee while you're sleeping for two small examples. That's like comparing apples to oranges. Sex is not in the same category a those two by a long shot. You could live without even thinking of sex, but you can't live without breathing.
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This still has nothing to do with gays being any sort of threat. I'm not saying anything against individuals. Seems you are trying to paint me as attacking individuals. I'm not. I'm attacking a choice, and a political agenda. I'm also simply saying that while you have a liberal view point, you don't seem willing to allow individuals to make up their own minds. Seems like you are telling people forget choosing. Let the choice choose you.
I'm actually saying people have more freedom than you are. They can at least choose under my belief system.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2008 21:27 |
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I don't go around with my head down.
When I read comments like that I do picture otherwise. Fair enough, and I'm very glad to hear it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2008 21:29 Last Edited By: pakratmak |
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Sex is not in the same category a those two by a long shot
Very clearly, that's not anywhere near what I said. I brought those up to explain that your brain does things without you have to make choices for it, it acts on it's own. Nice try.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 16 Aug 2008 21:32 |
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I'm actually saying people have more freedom than you are. They can at least choose under my belief system.
You're creating an option that others say doesn't even exist just to demonize their choosing it. You also want this to sound like you're doing them a favor?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 17 Aug 2008 20:21 |
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Dude, people have choices. If you allow one group actions without the ability to choose then you have to allow every person from every group that line. So nobody is ever held accountable for anything.
Married with children. Get out easy. Just say gay!
On other matters. Weigh 500 lbs? Can't stop eating? Just born that way.
Robbed a liquor store? Can't help it born to run.
Chasing other women after marriage? Can't help it. Born to lust after women I guess.
Get my drift. It's a poor argument to use.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 17 Aug 2008 23:26 |
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Dude, people have choices.
Apparently, you want it to be so true that they are just making it a conscious choice you will keep ignoring what I'm posting and the scientific findings in general and the gays themselves. Do some research of your own and prove the gay people and the biologists wrong and maybe you'll have something. Until you can show their beliefs and findings wrong-it is not a choice.
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If you allow one group actions
An emotional response is not an action.
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Married with children.
Divorce doesn't get easier when you change the reason or affirm it. Has nothing to do with an emotional response. Still no threat to me or the rest of society.
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Weigh 500 lbs?
Cute. You're ignoring the effects and mechinations of companys that process the foods and feed us garbage? You do make your point about making a choice about having to feed yourself properly and tending to your health. Can be made to be tied to an emotional response but is still not strictly the creation of said emotional response. Poor eating and lack of excercise have no correlation to romantic feelings. Gays still not a threat to me or society.
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Robbed a liquor store?
It may be a crime to you to be gay but it's a biblical crime or a personal bias, not a societal one and still no threat. Try again.
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Chasing other women after marriage?
If it were really just an equivalent to infidelity, you should have no problem with them getting married to solve it.
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It's a poor argument to use.
Indeed, every last one you've used has avoided answering my question. Let me put it as clearly as possible.
Why should anyone who is not a Christian deny the gays any rights that are available to the rest of us? You've made them a dangerous political movement-back that up with a valid argument instead of pleading your personal bias.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 17 Aug 2008 23:41 Last Edited By: pakratmak |
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I found a real handy list of excuses others have tried. Check em out.
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Here's something I saw posted elsewhere and thought makes the point quite well.
1) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, liposuction and air conditioning.
2) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
3) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
4) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.
5) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Brittany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
6) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.
7) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
8) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.
9) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans...
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 17 Aug 2008 23:44 |
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I also found what looks like a thesis project or something involving minorities in comics. This section covers the gay characters.
http://www.lonelygods.com/hom.html
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 01:18 |
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Listen, you cannot defend homosexuality as a natural behavior. It doesn't take an advanced degree in physiology to know that the human body wasn't built for homosexual intercourse.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 02:22 |
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Listen, you cannot defend homosexuality as a natural behavior.
I can and am, even though I shouldn't have to. You don't believe that to be natural and that's fine. You don't have to believe it's natural. This is not the issue.
The question is why there should be any laws in our seculr society against them.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 02:32 |
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Once we start letting a man marry another man, there will be some other nut who wants to marry a pig, or have six wives. Think about what that's going to do to this nation.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 04:29 |
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Think about what that's going to do to this nation.
So nobody has a serious reason to keep the gays from marrying each other? You and Tim have both fed me these rediculous and dumb stupid diabolic results which would not happen, could not be allowed to happen and have absolutely no connection to a civil union between two human adults. Can we please stop with the make believe?
You actually had something resembling a decent argument with it being against nature because a baby could not result from the union, which has implications against evolution of all things. Please have more respect for me and yourself than posting rantings about pig marriage.
again I ask-
why there should be any laws in our seculr society against them?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 04:42 |
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Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.
The scans reveal that in gay people, key structures of the brain governing emotion, mood, anxiety and aggressiveness resemble those in straight people of the opposite sex.
The differences are likely to have been forged in the womb or in early infancy, says Ivanka Savic, who conducted the study at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden.
"This is the most robust measure so far of cerebral differences between homosexual and heterosexual subjects," she says.
Previous studies have also shown differences in brain architecture and activity between gay and straight people, but most relied on people's responses to sexuality driven cues that could have been learned, such as rating the attractiveness of male or female faces.
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-struct ...
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In 1862, Charles Darwin wrote that “we do not even in the least know the final cause of sexuality. The whole subject is hidden in darkness.” Since then, however, many studies have offered insight into this complex issue. Although many think that homosexuals are simply confused about their sexual identity, recent scientific findings have given more support to those who believe gays are genetically predetermined to be homosexuals. Armed with an understanding of these findings, one must concur that homosexuality is not a choice but rather a genetically predetermined trait. The evidence is overwhelming: there is a genetic -- not psychological -- link to homosexual behavior.
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Although genetics may not be the sole reason individuals are homosexuals, recent research has shown that sexual orientation certainly has biological links. Homosexuality has nothing to do with disturbed mentalities. Homosexuality has to do with brain anatomy and genetics. Homosexuals might even be gay before they are born. But even more simply, as Angelican Archbishop Benjamin Tutu of South Africa wrote, “if this sexual orientation were indeed a matter of personal choice, the homosexual persons must be the craziest coots around to choose a way of life that exposes them to so much hostility, discrimination, loss, and suffering.” Homosexuality is not a choice. It’s a way of life.
http://www.geocities.com/southbeach/boardwalk/7151/biobasis.html
Those are in case anyone still wants to say it's a choice-you're entitled to that opinion, they say you're wrong, do what you will with the info.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 05:06 |
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Please have more respect for me and yourself than posting rantings about pig marriage.
It sounds absurd I know, but there are freaks out there like that.
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Homosexuality is not a choice. It’s a way of life.
I don't know about your belief systems; but I know that as a Christian, homosexuality is indeed a choice. I believe that God would not have a man born with a lifestyle that would damn him. When a man commits that terrible sin, he does it because he chose to.
__________________"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 06:06 |
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I believe that God would not have a man born with a lifestyle that would damn him.
What was that story about hardening Pharoah's heart again at the expense of how many dead? How about poor Job, the true believer that Satan conned God into allowing the torment of? If you think God made all of us, gave us free will to make a choice to do right or wrong and assigned a punishment to the wrongdoing, knowing full well in advance what we would do and kept it that way-that's exactly what God did and does every day. I'm sorry if that sounds a bit harsh to you, but if you read the bible without someone directing every line to you, you get a different story than the popular one. Mine might not be 100% correct, but i do go by the book, to the best of my understanding.
I could make a pretty lengthy list of things that I can't believe a loving and omnipotent god would do.
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there are freaks out there like that.
I know preacher man(I'm surprised he hasn't said hello yet) could probably tell you a few stories that would make you cry and I have a few myself you wouldn't believe. Still, people who are attracted to other people aren't the same as the mentally ill who have sex with animals.
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but I know that as a Christian, homosexuality is indeed a choice.
I understand very clearly what you might think of them. That does not change the reality of it. You might actually do the proper role described in Leviticus and stone any to death that you discover-it doesn't change the lack of choice into a choice.
By the bye, why would your religious belief alone lead you to think you know something about human sexuality, biopsychology, or plain psychology? The bible is not a textbook that I recall. You made the choice to believe what you were told and no more as near as I can tell.
I'm glad you came here Steve. You've livened the place up a bit. I really must insist we actually get back to the question I posed earlier. I'm waiting for Tim's response but you are certainly welcome to tackle it too.
I understand your personal issues, and faith based issues of the homosexual lifestyle and whatever it might entail-this is not about whether they're right or wrong for whatever they do. Your stance is very clear that they are wrong for being this way and what they do. I get it and I'm not debating your stance at all. This is a legal matter I'm referring to.
Why should there be any laws in a secular society against them?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 15:57 Last Edited By: Tim |
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I'll humor you pak. Let's say that scientists have proven that brain patterns are different for gays. So what? Their different for alcoholics, people prone to steal, nervous people, athletes, angry people, etc.
Some of that difference might be there due to training their mind to go in that direction.
No matter what the psychology behind it. A person ultimately chooses one lifestyle over another. I'm not even trying to argue the point anymore over the sinfulness of it at this point. You don't believe it's wrong because of your atheism, but let's not kid around shall we.
Take all the scientific data in the world and it still doesn't replace the ability to choose in a person. Some might find it an uneasy choice for whatever reasons be they psychological, environment, history, etc, but still a person ultimately can choose and must accept the responsibility for their choice whether good or bad.
Some people are more prone to smoke cigarettes than others. That's been proven. Should smokers then be told they have no choice but to smoke, or tell them they can quit if they so desire.
And one more thing the threat as I have repeated comes from the political movement that threatens to change the education of our children and the laws of our society in general. Nobody is attacking individuals. I disagree with that lifestyle, but my biggest issue is the politics of the whole thing. Politics that create absurd ideas like taking choice out of people's hands.
What next? Will doctors need to do blood tests to let people know if they are gay or not so parents can lead them down the politically correct path? I'm sorry, but our logic is flawed.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 16:43 |
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We're having a communication breakdown here. You have your beliefs about the sin and sinner which get piggy backed with ideas of animal marriage and polygamy and whatever else. Your beliefs and your ideas are your own, you can have them and do whatever you like with them. I asked why there needs to be laws against them, what threat they possess to the rest of us who are not of the same faith as you. Your faith, your beliefs and your ideas are all avoiding what I am asking, unless you seriously believe your wishes are enough to create laws over.
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the threat as I have repeated comes from the political movement that threatens to change the education of our children and the laws of our society in general.
I'm glad we came back to the political movement part of it. You had something resembling a problem here. A political movement has to do with altering power and or authority. Just them wanting equal recognition threatens whose supposed power and authority? How are two people getting the benefits afforded any other marriage affecting the education of anyone else's child? It'd be real southernly of you if you would actually address the legal part finally.
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Will doctors need to do blood tests to let people know if they are gay or not so parents can lead them down the politically correct path? I'm sorry, but our logic is flawed.
Your logic is flawed-your question makes no sense.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 19:16 |
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I know preach wants this wrapped up and I know its not a pleasant topic to begin with. I'm looking at my arguments and yours and trying to get somewhere with it, get my head around why we're diverging on one thing and arguing another. I want to wrap this up myself before it becomes completely ill mannered.
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The faith side is that homosexuality is wrong. The Bible clearly states this. I can't argue on that. As a sin, you probably should not be convinced of anything that tells you it is less than such and I would go sar far as to say they must seem like an insult to live that way in front of you, almost issuing a challenge to God Himself. At the very least they must seem disrespectful to you to live that way they do. I comprehend this even though I obvously don't agree with it. I cannot convince you or expect you to change your mind on what is right or wrong on this, nor have I tried.
I realize this is a thread I started on morality and this question must seem to you to be about arguing the morality of their lifestyle. That may be a mistake on my part, so my apologies there, and I assure you, this is not about their morality if that's what you were thinking.
The issue I was trying to get to is why should any aspect of your faith be afforded or made to be followed as a law by people outside your faith. It happened to land on gay 'rights' as that's where we were at the time but it can be on any issue where 'Christian values' are the obviuos underpinning of a law, regulation or ordinance.
Why are any laws created in the first place? I would suggest as a means for keeping order, harmony and decency for whatever collective the law is enforced upon. If it's a city ordinance, it's for the city. A piece of legislature created by congress and passed by the other two branches would be for the entire country. When I ask why shouldn't gays be allowed to marry, I was looking for you to explain how that marriage would affect the order, harmony or decency of their community, state, or the entire country.
I understand your personal concerns and the worst case scenarios presented to you by people who share your faith and concerns. I never asked if Christians should recognize or accept gay marriage. I asked about the rest of us outside your faith.
As for the concerns themselves, these are pretty far fetched at best. You could say that having gays around brings the possibility of floods and earthquakes because of your beliefs, but this does not make a real threat to the rest of us apparent or real. You say that it affects others in negative ways but never say how or why and I doubt you really can answer how or why here, at least logically or reasonably.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 20:22 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Look pak, I just want you to admit that a person any person could by the force of their will choose not to have gay sex regardless of any kind of scientific evidence suggesting otherwise. I don't want to argue about whether it's right or wrong or anything else. I just want to make a clear distinction between living a lifestyle and being born into a race.
Now that's one thing I want to get at. The thing you want to know I thought I've answer a bunch of times. I don't like the idea that young kids are being taught anything whatsover to do with gay sex. They shouldn't even be aware it exists much less have the government teach them it's ok. At least let the parents choose what to teach their kids as to the morality of it, and of course there's the fear that pastors will get sued for teaching it's wrong. The education thing is happening right now in California. For that matter as I've discussed I don't believe in allowing gay couples to adopt kids either. I don't think it's right period. No need to go through that one again.
The other day I read an article that said a guy was suing over a bible printing claiming it hurt him because it said homosexuality was wrong.
These are real legal and moral problems here that effect all of our country.
But really all I want to hear from you before we go on to anything else I want to get this born that way thing out of the way.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 21:08 |
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you know, Pak, I will get back to this, but as I said, they blocked this site at work and who has time to surf the net at home?
I will agree with you that my well-meaning allies on this issue are attacking this from all the wrong angles.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 18 Aug 2008 22:19 |
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Look pak, I just want you to admit that a person any person could by the force of their will choose not to have gay sex
That's fine. They can choose not to have gay sex if they didn't want to. The science is about being born as a homosexual and not what they do because of it. Glad we cleared that up.
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I thought I've answer a bunch of times.
Not once.Quote:
I don't like the idea that young kids are being taught anything whatsover to do with gay sex.
Me either. next...
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have the government teach them it's ok.
You're right, it's not the government's job to tell them it's ok. By that same token the government is also not alloowed to use a religious reason to prevent something either. Rethink your argument so you can you use it again later, toward something it actually applies to. This has nothing to do with allowing gays to marry or even the question I asked.
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I don't believe in allowing gay couples to adopt kids either It's funny that the one thing in your argument that would actually pertain to what I was talking about is something else you'd rather avoid.
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The other day I read an article that said a guy was suing over a bible printing claiming it hurt him because it said homosexuality was wrong.
Seriously...wtf? Not only has this nothing to do with gays marrying or my actual question, it actually has nothing to do with anything else you're even talking about. I could sue you for being a homosexual and that it hurts my feelings that you're that way-it doesn't mean there'll ever be a case or the allegation was true-you can't even prove the article you read was true correct? This is exactly one of the major problems of why we never seem to stay on topic. Just so we're clear-I don't think you're gay, that was just for example's sake.
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I want to get this born that way thing out of the way.
Ok, let's get it out of the way. There is the argument of them being born that way and there is the argument of what they do because of being that way. You purposely grey the area between them. You don't want to believe they can be born that way? It's true whether you believe it or not. Do they have an option on not acting on their urges or desires, etc? Absolutely. You got me. They can choose to abstain from sex-I was avoiding this the whole time, I am so defeated now...wait....I never argued that.....I wasn't even talking about that....you want to keep going there even though it has absolutely nothing to do with why there should be any laws against them...
They absolutely have the choice not to have sex with each other, the question is-WHY SHOULDN'T THEY? In your opinion it should be illegal for them to be recognized as in a civil union or be able to adopt children, the question is-WHY?
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my well-meaning allies on this issue are attacking this from all the wrong angles.
Hurry back.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 19 Aug 2008 04:05 |
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Let me lay a quick foundation here. I believe, (and I'm trying not to reinvent the wheel here, just establish a basic premise and worldview)that there is a right and a wrong. It is apparent that you do too and although we might disagree on some of the particulars, we would probably find huge areas of agreement.
So since we agree (hopefully) that there is such a thing as a right and a wrong, let me also extend to you the notion that here are two kinds of wrong. The first kind affects other people (i.e, I knock you in the head and take your wallet) and the second kind that really only affects the individual(I would put most drug use in this category.
According to Thomas Jefferson, governments exist for the sole purpose of protecting your natural rights from infringement by your fellow man. I reference this concept quite a bit because it is a foundational concept about the proper scope of government in a free society. A proper understanding of what is and is not a right is essential to knowing whether or not your rights are being violated, but I'll come back to that.
Though I maintain that you are accountable before your Creator for both kinds of wrongdoing, I think that in most instances, government can only really have jurisdiction over the first kind. In my logic, if you really want to fry your noodle, the Creator of your noodle might take offense to it, but it is after all your noodle to fry and the state should really stay out of it.
I hate to post and run, but I do have three kids to get to bed and a cartoon to crank out before getting 4 or 5 hours of sleep and starting all over again. More later..
Trust me, I am going somewhere with this.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 19 Aug 2008 15:07 |
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That's fine. They can choose not to have gay sex if they didn't want to.
The gay movement's entire political agenda is driven by the idea that they are some kind of new race, but as you have pointed out it is a choice to do it or not, and since that's really the only way a person can be defined as gay or not...
Unless of course you want to have a scientist test everyone for gay legal status.
Gay people should not be defined as a race. A person is born into a race and cannot turn it off and on. Your color of skin is your color of skin. You wake up everyday with the same race.
I want to take the politics of this thing and dissect it for what it is. It's a nutty political movement because it tries to take common sense and throw it out the window.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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