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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 20:11 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Here's a book I recommend for those that might be interested in learning a Christian perspective on American history.
One Nation Under God: Ten Things Every Christian Should Know Abou ...
Author Dr. David Gibbs presents ten incontrovertible, heavily documented, and politically incorrect historical facts which prove that Christianity played a pivotal role in uniquely shaping the most free, prosperous, and powerful nation in history.
The author came to my church a while back. I've been reading this book myself. Borrowed it from a friend. Pretty interesting. Probably enough to make liberals angry enough to see fire shooting out their nose, but still. It's not written in a combatant sort of way. It just quotes several historical figures, and describes the times that our fore fathers were in.
It talks about why the pilgrims came to America, the Great Awakening, and lots of other historical events connected to Christianity. Good reading for Christians, and liberals with open minds. You can
get it at amazon used at a great deal.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 20:16 |
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Captain America
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I've never said Christianity never played a role, but, again, they were men of the Enlightenment and believed in not legislating from the pulpit.
deism, deism, deism …
http://www.deism.com/
Lots of Thomas Pine cited, so you know it's good.
I'll check the link, tim …
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 20:43 |
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You lean more my way on that than Pak does. He thinks the forefathers wrote the manuals for the ACLU.
But wasn't theism branded on just a few forefathers like Thomas Jefferson and maybe Benjamin Franklin? George Washington was a complete Christian in the standard traditional way. None of the forefathers actually wanted to force anyone to do anything, but I think the definition of enforcement has been stretched for modern sensibilities just like the idea that american citizens have the right to not be offended by religion or other ideas. We don't. At least we can't get the government to legislate away the expression of ideas in any arena. The ACLU begs to differ of course.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 21:17 |
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Captain America
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Not all of them were out-and-out deists, but they were men who believed in science and facts. and they all were products of the enlightenment.
Well, if you put a picture of jesus on a government building, you are endorsing religion.
i think the aclu does some good stuff and some silly stuff, but it does it for the right reasons. i know you disagree, but when nra groans about assault weapons bans, i get a little bit nauseous. Like i said, both groups have to stretch the middle.
frankly, i could give a shit about christmas trees and even nativity scenes, but i do think if you're in a community with Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus, you should nod to them, as well: They are Americans, too.
That said, if city hall posted a sign that read "There is no god," i bet you'd get pissed.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 21:23 |
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Tim I know there were plenty of men of faith in that group. I also know they knew wisely not to create a theocracy and didn't.
The ACLU has two manuals. The law and the Constitution. You were half right smartass.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 21:26 Last Edited By: Tim |
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Quote:
You were half right smartass. Oh now I'm the smart donkey. Oh boy.
No I'm pretty sure the ACLU has their own version of the law and the Constitution because ever since they got involved all the laws in the land seemed to change.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 21:30 |
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How many versions of the Constitution do you think there are?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 22:02 |
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Captain America
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Quote:
ACLU has their own version of the law and the Constitution because ever since they got involved
Man, you give the opposition a lot of power: According to you, the deficit that exploded under a GOP-led WH and Congress is because they caved to the Dems. The ACLU has managed to wholesale change the laws. Liberals are ruining Iraq. Seriously, How did we get som powerful when, for the better part of the decade, dems were out of the game: The Repubs held the WH, Congress, The Supreme Court, most of the governorships … I mean … seriously …
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| Posted: 29 Aug 2007 23:21 |
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Your telling me to be serious. Now I know you're reaching. Got to go for now fellas. I shall Return, or Ahhhll be BAACK!
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2007 16:42 |
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Quote:
Not all of them were out-and-out deists, but they were men who believed in science and facts. and they all were products of the enlightenment.
Well, if you put a picture of jesus on a government building, you are endorsing religion.
i think the aclu does some good stuff and some silly stuff, but it does it for the right reasons. i know you disagree, but when nra groans about assault weapons bans, i get a little bit nauseous. Like i said, both groups have to stretch the middle.
frankly, i could give a shit about christmas trees and even nativity scenes, but i do think if you're in a community with Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus, you should nod to them, as well: They are Americans, too.
That said, if city hall posted a sign that read "There is no god," i bet you'd get pissed.
Wow, this whole post very neatly summed up something I've been arguing with Tim about for mon...years now. Nice work CA, you're living up to your moniker.
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2007 16:53 |
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Captain America
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Thanks, Danny.
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2007 17:07 |
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Yeah we better watch out for those crazy Christians trying to put up pictures of Jesus. That's like shooting people behind walls with machine guns and cutting people's heads off. Those crazy Christians sure are dangerous trying to tell people how to love their neighbors, and showing concern for their fellow man. Thank God we have...I mean thank the almighty ACLU we have lawyers to sue anytime somebody gets out of their church boundaries. We'll show those nuts to not talk about God in public. Yeah, we should put them all in jail.
Is that good enough for you guys?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2007 17:19 |
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Captain America
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So, it is OK for your town hall to put up an image of Krishna or to put up a sign that said "There is no God"?
You would not be offended?
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2007 17:40 |
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One girl ain't the town hall dude. You know I've argued this before with danny over a picture of Jesus, at that point I believe Danny said he would never argue against individuals saying their mind in schools or whatever. I'd like to hear what he says about this incident for clarification.
Second just because I'm offended don't mean squat. I got a right to say whatever I want whenever the hell I want. I don't care what I'm talking about. I like to avoid making people offended on purpose but that is a personal decision based on morals and being a likeable guy, but talking about ideas,concepts, and religion should never be banned by anyone for any reason and shouldn't be all that offensive to anybody with half a brain.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2007 17:48 |
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Captain America
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Good point and duly noted, so if your town hall to put up an image of Krishna or to put up a sign that said "There is no God," you wouldn't petition the government to take down the signs, and if people in the community did, would you give them the same bile you deal liberals?
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just because I'm offended don't mean squat
Oh, boy, here come the jesus jokes! YES!
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2007 17:51 |
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Captain America
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Also, if I were a Muslim or a well-known atheist, and I were going to court, and I saw a gleaming picture of Jesus, I think I'd very nervous.
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2007 17:56 |
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Good point and duly noted, so if your town hall to put up an image of Krishna or to put up a sign that said "There is no God," One it's not the exact same thing. Two what about the majority views of the town shouldnt' they come into play? If one person in the whole town has that view I'm pretty sure it aint' going to stay up long.
I'll just tell you like this there are legitimate ways to handle difficult issues and they don't involve silencing individuals. Individual speech shouldn't even be considered a problem. Your position on that girl at the graduation speaking her mind tells me my fears were well founded all along. You guys won't stop till freedom of speech is killed.
And asking people not to say the F word on my message board is not the same thing as asking them to not present their beliefs and ideas. Obviously I'll allow almost any idea on here no matter how crazy. Curse words aren't necessary to express thoughts. Most of the time people doing the most of it are trying hard to avoid using logical coherent sentences.
I've got an attitude about my speech rights. You want to take them away. You are going to need more than what you got. I tell you that right now. You might as well break into my house.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2007 18:19 |
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Captain America
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Dude, I don't give a shit what the inbred tart says. Seriously, I find the need to bring up religion at every juncture kinda banal, but it doesn't offend me personally.
I do think she shouldn't be preachin' the ol' ancient Israelite goatherder's guide to smiting thine enemies and other related mythology on the taxpayers' dime, because that is a soft way for the state to sanction a religion, which is the step before a law is passed doing just that.
I wouldn't take it to court, cause I don't care, but I get why others would care and do so. You don't want gayness seeping into your life via a state-sanctioned or approved act, law, whatever. People who aren't religious don't want religion seeping into their lives via the same.
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| Posted: 30 Aug 2007 18:25 |
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Quote:
but it doesn't offend me personally.
Here is the deal. Ideas presented by an individual should not be ground for holding that person's degree hostage. That's injustice. Even if it was some flaming queer. Why the heck would you hold their degree hostage for speaking their mind. If she went up there asking the people to commit illegal acts and cursed and went on I could say them asking her to stop while she was talking but to hold her degree hostage for what she believes and sharing that belief in a speech.
Hey I'm a tax payer, your a tax payer. I'm getting sick of hearing that as an excuse to shun liberty. That has not one thing to do with this. Surely you can see that your personal feelings toward religion in public do not supercede the constitution. Freedom of religion just doesn't mean freedom of religion in hiding. The next step will be censoring preachers in the pulpit like they do in Canada right now.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 31 Aug 2007 02:01 |
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The ideas were not the grounds. She was told not to do something and did it anyways. Simple.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Sep 2007 21:47 |
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And I'm sure you have always obeyed the establishment.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 02 Sep 2007 01:43 |
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This is like an amusement part. Can we do the rides one at a time please?
Whether or not I've done anything doesn't fit in here. The girl did something she was told not to and has to pay the price for it. The school is holding her degree, not liberals, not the ACLU, not the atheists, not the commies.
If someone's boss tells them not to have a picture of their wife at their desk and the guy leaves it there, he deserves what he gets. It's not fair that the boss says to remove it, but the boss is the boss. The boss does not owe the employee a reason either. The boss wants it gone and that's that. The boss did nothing illegal in this case in asking for it's removal. The boss isn't wrong if the employee insists and the boss gives him a dismissal for not listening.
Since when is it necessary for me to hear your views on your beliefs every waking minute? Your right to religious expression is the same one I have. I go to an event like a graduation for my kid and one of the other kids feels it necessary to go further than thanking her diety of choice and start preaching, that's her taking a liberty, not liberty itself.
You say you would sit still for a 'flaming queer' sharing their views now, when you were just bitching up a storm about them teaching 'gay stuff' at your local school. You contradict yourself.
Who's trying to take away your speech rights? The school isn't holding your degree, and you've misread the situation to begin with.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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