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Political Discussion / Politics / President / Obama's speech on faith based groups plans

Posted:  02 Jul 2008 04:15
Barack talks about his plan for faith based community programs in Zanesville, OH on July 1, 2008.


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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted:  02 Jul 2008 14:20
Why isn't anyone screaming 'separation of church and state' like they were in 2001?
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1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted:  02 Jul 2008 14:30
I actually have a (probably) unusual take on this, and it's remarkably similar to my take on Bush's program.
  On the one hand, I don't feel it's the governments role to fund charities. Charities work best when they are left alone and privately supported. Charities have an obligation to raise their own funds and they raise those funds (partly) by showing results and making the case for people to voluntarily hand over their money or time.
On the other hand, as long as the government is in the charity supporting business, and if results are really what we are after, it doesn't make sense to exclude groups with a phenomenal track record just because they happen to be faith based. A friend of mine runs a Bible college inside a prison and for those convicts who complete their three year program, the recidivism rate is 2. Not 2 percent, 2 guys, out of thousands over 20 years. Pretty impressive track record. Apparently whether you agree with it or not, whatever they are doing works, and it makes very little sense to exclude them. I don't think allowing those groups access to public funds indicates an endorsement of their beliefs.
On the third hand (of course I have 3 hands, I'm evolving!) I personally would be very leery of accepting public funds in my ministry because things like that always come with strings attached and for a ministry to submit itself to government scrutiny and approval like that is, in my opinion, inappropriate. I believe it would hinder the work we were trying to do.
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1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted:  02 Jul 2008 14:37
Quote:
Why isn't anyone screaming 'separation of church and state' like they were in 2001?

I want to know too. Looks a lot like it doesn't matter what a candidate says to Dems as long as he's on your team. I know I have a good friend who is a Dem.

Well of course I'm not going to attack what he's saying here, but still to get my vote he needs to say what he's going to do about judges, the oil crisis, how he plans on paying for his plans etc.

Still a McCain man. I think McCain hasn't really gotten into the faith thing because he's trying to go down the middle ground. He did meet with Franklin Graham, Billy Graham's son. Billy Graham of course is very famous for preaching the gospel of Christ and meeting with all Presidents regardless of party.

I have more trust in McCain's willingness to get busy and attack the high gas prices issue. Obama keeps saying he doesn't want to drill.
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Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted:  03 Jul 2008 02:33
I'm screaming preach....I really am. I happen to be torn here too.

I like Obama. I do. My favorite candidate since Ron Paul left(I forgave Ron's history, I liked what he was talking about now).

On the one hand, I CANNOT abide ANY politician who would dare suggest handing tax money to ANY group that isn't paying taxes themselves. The nonprofit thing and the religious thing aren't even in my equation yet. That's enough to piss me off alone. It's as if he's deciding what charity we're all supporting-that's humongous balls for a guy that doesn't have the job yet.

Now let's just factor in that nonprofit part. We have a group that usally has to operate on a shoestring and fight for every contribution to get whatever possible done with it. Here comes the new pimp in charge, Big Sugar Daddy Barack. How well do you think they're going to handle their little windfall? It's gonna start with the purest motives and everybody going 'gee, think of all the good we're gonna do now that we finally have the funds to do it'. It won't take long before the person handling the financial records makes that 'gee, what margins can I move on the record? charity starts at home....my home....my new home...' That might be a little far fetched but you get the gist. A big wad of cash doesn't strike me as the best plan here.

Now for the religious part. Like it or don't, believe it or don't, we have that seperation of church and state. Government money is supposed to stay away from any place of a single faith and in return they don't have to part with their money as taxes. This is a supreme court decision and their upholding and defining on the constitution. An outrage, end of story.

----------------------------------------

*take a pause, take a breath, think it through*

We have some problems....really big problems.

It's more than the price of oil, way more. That would actually be more of a symptom than a problem with what we're facing here at home and as a global community.

We still have a war going on which is being paid for on credit and badly printed money...

Is out outing in Iraq actually preventing anything here at home? very doubtful

We have a media system designed for revenue instead of an informed citizenry and I would actually say also for sidetracking and fooling us.

As we have an inflation in our economy from several sides, we also have an inflation in education destroying our professional community(at least the middle man), which starts with kids getting screwed out of a decent education by a system that sacrifices them and their minds for the sake of funding and teachers covering their own asses.

Unemployment is starting to spike.

Gas prices are driving up costs on everything else.

We have people starting to panic, pulling their money out of various funds partly out of fear, partly because they want to keep their homes.

The credit crisis....don't get me started there...

The impending rush of baby boomers taking their money out of retirement accounts and mopping up the remnants of social security and medicare as they go bankrupt.

The inevitable stock market crash which will give all previous crashes an air of nostalgia and destroy retirement accounts at an unbelievable, unstoppable rate.

We still have the already unemployed, uninsured, homeless, uneducated, AIDS and pals, gang warfare, pollution, global warming, outsourcing, downsizing, corrupt governemnts, criminals, victims and a long long long line of people just on the fringe of joining this hopeless parade.

A short list off the top of head of what's going on here in our backyards not including regional disasters courtesy of mother nature.

Now take into account what else besides the temperature is going on around the world because what happens to our neighbors will affect us. You let their house burn and you ask for yours to catch too.

We need every ounce of help we can get to get our house in order.

I'm still screaming but I'm not sure it's any one thing anymore.

If you have a God to talk to, now's as good a time as any.
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted:  04 Jul 2008 02:49
Quote:
My favorite candidate since Ron Paul left(I forgave Ron's history, I liked what he was talking about now).
Boy, didn't see that one coming. Other than the opposition to the Iraqi campaign, i can't think off hand of anything where  Ron Paul and Mr. Obama would agree. I had high hopes for Dr. Paul myself, but I still realized he had about as much chance as I do. I have to be honest, I have no one to vote for this time around.
  I think you and I have some common ground in some of your economic points. I think there are certain industries in our country that are basically a house of cards and aren't based on any real economic laws. The politicians on both sides of the aisle have been slapping Band-Aids on it for 50 years or so now  in order to delay the inevitable. Fiat currency, anyone?
Quote:
Now let's just factor in that nonprofit part. We have a group that usally has to operate on a shoestring and fight for every contribution to get whatever possible done with it. Here comes the new pimp in charge, Big Sugar Daddy Barack. How well do you think they're going to handle their little windfall? It's gonna start with the purest motives and everybody going 'gee, think of all the good we're gonna do now that we finally have the funds to do it'. It won't take long before the person handling the financial records makes that 'gee, what margins can I move on the record? charity starts at home....my home....my new home...' That might be a little far fetched but you get the gist. A big wad of cash doesn't strike me as the best plan here.
Why would that problem be exclusive to faith-based organizations? Last time I checked, greed and avarice weren't exclusively church-based issues.
Quote:
Now for the religious part. Like it or don't, believe it or don't, we have that seperation of church and state. Government money is supposed to stay away from any place of a single faith and in return they don't have to part with their money as taxes. This is a supreme court decision and their upholding and defining on the constitution.
I think the idea of separation of church and state is a fine idea. I share the concerns that the Danbury Baptists had when they wrote to Jefferson.But I believe that your understanding of what that means is a relatively recent interpretation. But since it's not actually in the Constitution, we as a people will probably continue to disagree about what it means.
I also think you have a small misunderstanding about what taxes churches do and do not pay, and the reasoning behind it. They actually enjoy no more and no less tax breaks than any other 501c3 charity. But that's way off topic.
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1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted:  04 Jul 2008 03:20
Quote:
Why would that problem be exclusive to faith-based organizations

That was to any nonprofit getting a large sum of cash in their lap, regardless of affiliation.

Quote:
since it's not actually in the Constitution, we as a people will probably continue to disagree about what it means.

The Supreme Court, for better or worse, made that decision already.

Quote:
I also think you have a small misunderstanding about what taxes churches do and do not pay,

Not to pick a fight but I consider all churches a business. They perform services and expect payment in the form of tithing for those services-consider the watchful eyes of those around you if you even 'thought' of not contributing. If I did a cartoon on it I would have the two front pews say accounts receivable and accounts payable.

If there is any type of money that comes in that does not get exempted, I am not aware of it.
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted:  04 Jul 2008 04:48
Quote:
The Supreme Court, for better or worse, made that decision already.
Can you cite the case or cases? I would be curious to see how much jurisdiction the Supremes could claim over an extra-constitutional concept.
Quote:
They perform services and expect payment in the form of tithing for those services-consider the watchful eyes of those around you if you even 'thought' of not contributing.
That hasn't been my experience, but I'm sure there are places where that does happen. My ministry experience has been to pour your life into other people and get nothing tangible in return.
Now, I am not a tax attorney, but I do know that they enjoy the same tax breaks as a secular organization with the same tax classification.
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1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted:  05 Jul 2008 01:05
Quote:
The 14th Amendment
The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution (Amendment XIV) is one of the post-Civil War amendments, intended to secure rights for former slaves. It includes the due process and equal protection clauses among others. The amendment introduces the concept of incorporation of all relevant federal rights against the states. While it has not been fully implemented, the doctrine of incorporation has been used to ensure, through the Due Process Clause and Privileges and Immunities Clause, the application of most of the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights to the states.

The incorporation of the First Amendment establishment clause in the landmark case of Everson v. Board of Education has impacted the subsequent interpretation of the separation of church and state in regard to the state governments.[26] Although upholding the state law in that case, which provided for public busing to private religious schools, the Supreme Court held that the First Amendment establishment clause was fully applicable to the state governments. A more recent case involving the application of this principle against the states was Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet (1994).


[edit] Supreme Court since 1947
The phrase "separation of church and state" became a definitive part of Establishment Clause jurisprudence in Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947), a case which dealt with a state law that allowed the use of government funds for transportation to religious schools. While the ruling upheld the state law allowing taxpayer funding of transportation to religious schools as constitutional, Everson was also the first case to hold the Establishment Clause applicable to the state legislatures as well as Congress, based upon the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

In 1962, the Supreme Court extended this analysis to the issue of prayer and religious readings in public schools. In Engel v. Vitale 370 U.S. 421 (1962), the Court determined it unconstitutional by a vote of 6-1 for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools, even when it is non-denominational and students may excuse themselves from participation. As such, any teacher, faculty, or student can pray in school, in accordance with their own religion. However, they may not lead such prayers in class, or in other "official" school settings such as assemblies or programs, including even "non-sectarian" teacher-led prayers, e.g. "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country," which was part of the prayer required by the New York State Board of Regents prior to the Court's decision. As the Court stated:

The petitioners contend, among other things, that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention, since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that, in this country, it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.

The court noted that it "is a matter of history that this very practice of establishing governmentally composed prayers for religious services was one of the reasons which caused many of our early colonists to leave England and seek religious freedom in America."[27]

Currently, the Supreme Court applies a three-pronged test to determine whether legislation comports with the Establishment Clause, known as the "Lemon Test". First, the legislature must have adopted the law with a neutral or non-religious purpose. Second, the statute's principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion. Third, the statute must not result in an excessive entanglement of government with religion.[28]

In 2002, a three judge panel on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals sparked a substantial controversy in holding that a California law prescribing the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was unconstitutional, due to the inclusion of the phrase "under God." In reaction to the case, Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow, both houses of Congress passed measures reaffirming their support for the pledge, and condemning the panel's ruling.[29] The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, where hearings began in March 2004. It was ultimately overturned by the Supreme Court in June of 2004, but on procedural grounds not related to the substantive constitutional issue. Rather, a five-justice majority held that Newdow, a non-custodial parent suing on behalf of his daughter, had no standing to bring the lawsuit in the first place. Many commentators viewed this as a "punt," to avoid resolving the issue in the midst of a presidential campaign.

When the Louisiana state legislature passed a law requiring public school biology teachers to give Creationism and evolution equal time in the classroom, the Supreme Court ruled that the law was unconstitutional because it was intended to advance a particular religion, and did not serve the secular purpose of improved scientific education.[30] (See also: Creation and evolution in public education)

The display of the Ten Commandments as part of courthouse displays was considered in a group of cases decided in summer of 2005, including McCreary County v. ACLU of Kentucky and Van Orden v. Perry. While parties on both sides hoped for a reformulation or clarification of the Lemon test, the two rulings ended with narrow 5-4 and opposing decisions, with Justice Stephen Breyer the swing vote.

On December 20, 2005, the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit ruled in the case of ACLU v. Mercer County that the continued display of the Ten Commandments as part of a larger display on American legal traditions in a Kentucky courthouse was allowed, because the purpose of the display (educating the public on American legal traditions) was secular in nature.[31] In ruling on the Mount Soledad cross controversy on May 3, 2006, however, a federal judge ruled that the cross on public property on Mount Soledad must be removed.[32]


From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_th ...
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted:  05 Jul 2008 01:31

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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted:  05 Jul 2008 06:10
Thanks for the citations Pak, let me do some reading and digging
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1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted:  06 Jul 2008 15:27
OK, Pak, laying aside the fact that the Supremes are hardly a model of consistency and that their history is respite with them overturning their own rulings, the cases you cited only essentially establish that the rights guaranteed in the 14th Amendment do extend to the states.
The fact remains that the phrase 'separation of church and state' does not exist in its original form in any of our founding documents. I think you and I can agree that the concept is there, and I think you and I can agree that it is a valid concept , but here you and I would probably disagree is on why it's a good idea.
  As you are no doubt aware, the phrase itself comes not from any piece of legislation, but from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a group of Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut. It seems T.J. was a bit uncomfortable with his predecessors habits of declaring national fasts and days of thanksgiving. He thought that having the government essentially order you to fast or be thankful was inappropriate for a nation founded on the idea of men being free to follow their own conscience in religious matters.
  The Danbury Baptists wrote him a letter asking whether or not their religious freedoms were part of their inalienable rights or did they exist at the whim of their state legislature.
Quote:
Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty--that religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals--that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions--that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbors; But, sir, our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter together with the law made coincident therewith, were adopted as the basis of our government, at the time of our revolution; and such had been our laws and usages, and such still are; that religion is considered as the first object of legislation; and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the state) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights; and these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgements as are inconsistent with the rights of
freemen.
Jefferson's reply was that religious freedoms were definitely part of one's natural rights and existed independently of the whims of the government.
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Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
If I may infer a bit here, it was Jefferson's view that the primary benefit of the First Amendment was no to protect the citizenry from religious activity, but rather to protect the free exchange of religious sentiment from government interference. Being part of our God-given rights, it was outside the jurisdiction of some man-made legislature.
  As our country has become increasingly secular and more hostile towards religion in general and Biblical Christianity in particular, subsequent interpretations of that phrase has been used a s a club to try to drive  religious expression from the public square all together.
  But surprisingly I stand with you in being leery of Obama's plan as explained in that video, but for vastly different reasons.
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1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted:  06 Jul 2008 22:53
I had a somewhat better citation I had quoted before on this board when the original discussion of this topic came around. (paraphrasing) The justice declared that it was natural that the wall of separation was naturally what was intended at the writing of the document. It was also pointed out that TJ surely must have sought each to be protected from the other and not one in particular from the other as it was the only way to ensure true freedom for and from both.

Quote:
interpretations of that phrase has been used a s a club to try to drive  religious expression from the public square


Not true. The most basic part of this 'battle' is this: Your rights stop at exactly the point someone else's begin. You have the freedom to speak about anything, anywhere, any time and to anyone you choose, even at any volume you choose -UNTIL- your right starts to encroach on someone else's rights. You can't do any of that on someone else's property without their consent. In general public, you have to follow 'house rules' which might include permits and guidelines and statutes (which any other speaker on any other topic would have to follow). In private and on your own property, knock yourself out-anything goes unless and until it spills over from your property and into the public, where it becomes subject to 'house rules' again.

I get the argument against it-people are claiming it inhibits them being free to do what they either feel they must or they have the right granted to do already. To this I would have to say that if that separation would actually by force or consequence inhibit your activities, maybe your activities should be questioned at the very least if not immediately altered or completely stopped.

I actually have a personal interest in that separation(which should be identical to yours possibly after some consideration) which allows all religions to be practiced by their followers while not infringing on the rest of us. Surely you have no problem with a Jew or Muslim practicing their faith so long as it wouldn't interfere with your personal space or beliefs or practices. I hope so, that's how a godless heathen like me feels about each of you 'practitioners'. Do what you like until it's gonna mess with my rights-I insist.
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted:  07 Jul 2008 12:55
Quote:
I actually have a personal interest in that separation(which should be identical to yours possibly after some consideration) which allows all religions to be practiced by their followers while not infringing on the rest of us. Surely you have no problem with a Jew or Muslim practicing their faith so long as it wouldn't interfere with your personal space or beliefs or practices. I hope so, that's how a godless heathen like me feels about each of you 'practitioners'. Do what you like until it's gonna mess with my rights-I insist.
As I probably have said alrteady, you might be surprised at how much we agree on this, but for different reasons. Where we part company is probably on some of this applications of this idea.
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1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted:  07 Jul 2008 20:12
Now my next dance move is to ask what applications you are referring, pro and con.
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles

And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles