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| Posted: 02 Jul 2008 15:03 |
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Do you understand any of this stuff?
Sounds to me and correct me if I'm wrong, that they basically know what rules apply to nature now. They believe the universe is expanding so therefore they theorize going far back enough that it was once very very small. Even this narrator admits they don't know what happened at the very beginning. Like it wouldn't correlate with now known laws of science. Hmm could be a supernatural source like I've been saying? Sounds like dude is a college student and does a great job of repeating what his professor and books tell him. I bet he doesn't even completely have a grasp on what he's saying.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 02 Jul 2008 15:04 |
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Doesn't come close to explaining how absolutely nothing can turn into an entire universe. It has to rely on the idea there was always something.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 03 Jul 2008 01:28 |
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Doesn't come close to explaining how absolutely nothing can turn into an entire universe
Neither does a deity doing the same thing with their voice and it doesn't say nothing became something because it adheres to a principal we all share that matter cannot be created or destroyed.
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could be a supernatural source like I've been saying? It could. Can't fight that one at all. I gotta tell ya-I even like the sound of that-really. Now explain if you still think that this process in any way contradicts the biblical story of creation. Who's to say that what He created wasn't all in that point which he made expand on the sixth day maybe?
On a side note, I am so proud of you(sorry if that sounds bad in some way-not how i mean and best term I can gather at moment). I think it's wonderful you took the step toward understanding what you oppose, for whatever reason you might have had. Thank you so much.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 03 Jul 2008 17:22 |
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I try, but boy does my head hurt.
Seriously though you have to understand something. I really do enjoy science. I even can enjoy a movie or comic that incorporates elements of evolution in it, but to me it's only science fiction. I like H.G. Wells, comics, and all that stuff.
What does make sense to me from this whole video thing is that the universe is expanding. I can go along with that if that's what the numbers are suggesting, but my view of course would be that God created it to expand.
I really like to think about the existence of God not only in spiritual terms but try to in scientific terms. A being that exists out of time. No beginning, no ending. Time exists only for mortals in a universe He created. He sees all things at every time simultaneously. I believe God can see things in ways we can not understand. Suggesting to me dimensions exist of which we have yet to discover.
I know it's beyond our human comprehension, but that's what makes Him God after all. If we could understand God, He wouldn't be God.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 03 Jul 2008 18:01 |
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I really like to think about the existence of God not only in spiritual terms but try to in scientific terms
The things you list about how you see God actually oppose science and do not fit in scientific terms.
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If we could understand God, He wouldn't be God.
If God is unable to be understood, why do you guys think you know how he operates and what he does and how he does/did it and what he would be concerned about and what rules he would have and if he wants your beliefs pushed on others and his motives and his law, etc etc etc....?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 05 Jul 2008 16:34 |
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I think I was referring to God's existence rather than God's law or what He would have us to do.
It's not impossible to get a good idea of what God wants if you study the Bible long enough.
See a man sees what he wants to. Where his heart is. You don't want to see God's perfect law and love in the Bible so you come up with a million and one excuses to not believe. I go looking for things in the Bible to confirm what I already believe. The more I study the more I find.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 06 Jul 2008 04:47 |
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The more I study the more I find.
There are a number of people who would agree on two things.
1) People have a tendency to find what they focus on or have an expectancy of finding.
2) The more an atheist studies the bible, the less they believe in it and the more it also confirms what they already believe.
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"God says" vs "What I believe God said"
"The bible says" vs "What I believe(was taught) the bible says"
Try each of those whenevr you quote scripture and see if it alters the meaning of what you might be saying and what you mean to be saying.
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By the by.....pick one
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If we could understand God, He wouldn't be God.
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It's not impossible to get a good idea of what God wants
Your posts negate each other, at least as I read them. Maybe I'm not getting what you mean.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2008 13:49 |
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Understanding God's being vs his general will for our lives.
Example I understand from John 3:16 that God loved the world and wants us to to believe on his Son.
But I cannot from reading the Bible tell you how God could exist at the beginning of the universe without ever having a beginning. Some things are just beyond our grasp to understand about God.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2008 15:37 |
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Understanding God's being vs his general will for our lives.
I don't see a difference here. I do see people using selective reasoning toward their own ends unfortunately.
This'll border on an adhominem but I'll give it a go just the same. Not meant as offensive, just an observation.
You seem to have no problem (even to the point of comfort) in not being able to grasp certain aspects of God yet appear/act certain of other things about that same being which bears an appearance of empowerment. My problem with this is that if you can't be certain of one thing about a particular subject, surely it must give at least a little pause toward the certainty of the other aspects of the same subject. Certainly you would have to question that certainty from the person telling you or the source they get it from.
That's bad enough for me right there but it gets worse actually.
I have seen many believers come up with explanations and even apologies for the things they are not certain of merely to protect the subject they've invested so much in. They might proclaim it as "Truth" and "Honesty" and "Understanding" and a "Connection With The Universe" and sadly, if any sort of uncertainty is there it is not truthful or honest or could it possibly be called understanding.
Now we have on the other hand, the things that believers are so incredibly sure of with that same subject handled a certain way. To me it looks like a culmination of snobbery, exclusivity and even naivity-probably exactly the way you might view the scientific community or most lawyers. Most of the world have come to accept the theory of evolution and the big bang as acceptible at the very least. The few holdouts against this are people using that certainty as something of a defense mechanism-quite possibly the reverse or even on equal footing(that's a different debate for another time). Another cog in this mechanism is the refusal to even question rationally any new evidence pointed out-which is something you might agree on as a problem, just associating it with those same groups of scientists and lawyers.
In short, comfortable lack of knowledge and forceful surety of knowledge in the same subject is literally an override of the original subject. The subject itself becomes nothing more than ideas opposing each other and will actually kill the original.
Old governments become lessons
Old magic and philosophy become science
Old science becomes lessons
Old religions become mythologies
It's really something of a one way street and most believers seem to be either trying to go the wrong way or just impede other people's passage on it, at least to me.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 09 Jul 2008 21:30 |
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Most of the world have come to accept the theory of evolution and the big bang as acceptible at the very least. Not really, must be where you live. If I were to just ask people I know at the gym, or people I run into at the store or whatever I'm pretty sure most wouldn't go for that monkey business.
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I have seen many believers come up with explanations and even apologies for the things they are not certain of merely to protect the subject they've invested so much in. I'm sure you would do the same for evolution.
Let me give you a look from my perspective. I chose to believe the Bible is the Word of God. I chose to believe Jesus is God's Son. Now I try to live by those choices.
I can't prove to the world that everything I believe is true, but I personally believe that God makes a difference in the lives of people changing drunks that beat their kids to loving family men, drug addicts to preachers, etc etc.
I think atheists get too wound up about hypocrites in the church, but the fact is everybody in this world is a hypocrite one way or the other. I believe in Jesus not people that believe in Jesus.
As far as not being able to understand God scientifically, well it just stands to reason that a being of ultimate power would be beyond human comprehension. Humans complain about God not being more explanatory of his actions, but then we do whatever the heck we want and wonder why God doesn't respond.
Also ponder this. Most of all the ancient myths have been recognized as such, but the Bible and God still exist. How many books are as old as the Bible and still sale that well? Another thing, the Bible is such a amazing study of character. You want to know what makes people tick? Read the Bible.
Just read this yesterday. I've read it a million times but it jumped out at me. If this doesn't describe modern man I don't know what does.
2 Timothy chapter 3
2TI 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2TI 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2TI 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2TI 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2TI 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2TI 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2TI 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2TI 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
I especially take note of the words' "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
We are getting so much knowledge but yet so lacking in spiritual knowledge.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 09 Jul 2008 23:14 |
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must be where you live
Call it a global phenomena.
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do the same for evolution
I am not the best authority on evolution as many people are more learned on it but I can say honestly, it stands on it's merits and flaws. Darwin even has a whole chapter there with ways to disprove it and it still stands as a reasonably certain process.
I concede you as your own self authority and you can believe everything and anything you like. You can feel free to teach your children whatever you like too. A big group of you can gather to agree on whatever it is you want to agree on. Where it becomes a problem is when people in general seem to think that their beliefs have to be upheld by everyone. YOU joined a religion or your parents bullied you into it or whatever, not the rest of us. I'll make you a deal-stop telling me what to believe and I'll gladly do the same.
Evolution is not a belief, evolution is science. Church incorporated made an enemy out of evolution, evolution did not come looking for you guys. Church incorporated had no reason to come after it as evolution can be amenable to scripture, but you guys just want to be stubborn about it. It doesn't matter either way if any of us common folk believe it or not. The only reason ANY of you even give a shit about this or even homosexuality for that matter is to provide a common enemy to get you to keep returning to church, and keep paying Church Inc. It's a non-issue. Evolution is scientific theory and it's not going anywhere until they have a better or more reasonable explanation as an answer to life's progression. (I called it fact in the past, shame on me. It's as factual as knowing that there is or isn't a deity 100%-not possible). Move on to something more important already. At least do something more constructive with your time.
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Most of all the ancient myths have been recognized as such, but the Bible and God still exist
Patience, history always repeats itself.
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a being of ultimate power would be beyond human comprehension
Which verifies that your bible is the word of men, not the incomprehensible word of a being of ultimate power. It's actually an edit decided on by committee back around 300 ad if I heard right. You might be saying next that God made sure we knew what He wanted by making those men write down 'His words' which now not only takes away the incomprehensible bit but is an attack on 'free will' too. If you think something can be understood on some things and completely beyond reason on others, stop just picking convenient things for each side already. The faithful in my opinion have a horrible natural tendency of selective reasoning.
As for the scripture, that passage is simply abyssmal and perverse. It makes everyone evil that doesn't accept your version of the 'truth' absolutely regardless of any circumstance. If that's what you consider a good authority on knowing how people tick or what mankind is about, I might actually have to pray for you. How can you abide by this and 'Love thy fellow man' too? What a hateful and befuddled, self defeating book. Most passages anyone show me from this book fit that description and I have to wonder why you posted it in the first place.
By the by, what is 'spiritual knowledge'? I already don't like the sound of it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 10 Jul 2008 04:31 |
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(sigh) I really am trying to stay out of this. I really am.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 10 Jul 2008 05:19 |
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Freedom of speech prevails, have at it.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 10 Jul 2008 13:04 |
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At some point it becomes Quote:
foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law which pretty much is a waste of time. I've never felt the need to 'make God's case' for him. After all, the Bible says you'll stand before him some day and really the issue is between you and him. I try to be a witness and if someone has some real questions, I will help all I can, but past that, I'm too old and too busy to argue.
If you really want to beleive that all us poor church folks are just so simple-minded that we can't read or think for ourselves and we just line up lockstep behind whatever Church Inc (whoever that is)tells us to do and we only run back to church because we're provoked to a frenzy by the prescence of a common enemy...if you want to think that, help yourself, Pak.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 10 Jul 2008 16:29 |
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Where it becomes a problem is when people in general seem to think that their beliefs have to be upheld by everyone. You mean like evolutionist believing all school children should be taught by their philosophy?
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Evolution is not a belief, evolution is science. That's what you believe anyway.
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doesn't matter either way if any of us common folk believe it or not. Again, I can go around the neighborhood and do a census. I bet 90 percent would say God created the world.
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The only reason ANY of you even give a shit about this or even homosexuality for that matter is to provide a common enemy to get you to keep returning to church, and keep paying Church Inc. Not really. I don't think you really believe that either. To be honest I go to church for selfish reasons. I want to be happy.
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If you think something can be understood on some things and completely beyond reason on others, stop just picking convenient things for each side already. All we need to know there are a lot of things that God makes abundantly clear as to what is wrong and what is right.
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It makes everyone evil that doesn't accept your version of the 'truth' absolutely regardless of any circumstance. Have you ever stopped to consider it's not my version of the truth, or your version of the truth that matters but God's?
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By the by, what is 'spiritual knowledge'? I already don't like the sound of it. I was just referring to understanding the Bible from a Christian perspective.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 10 Jul 2008 17:33 |
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we just line up lockstep behind whatever Church Inc (whoever that is)tells us to do and we only run back to church because we're provoked to a frenzy by the prescence of a common enemy...if you want to think that, help yourself, Pak.
Feel free to look over all my arguments with Tim here and try and tell me I should look at it any other way. I don't judge all believers this way, just the most obviously heinous ones. Church Inc would be the business of religion and faith as a whole including Islam and Scientology.
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evolutionist believing all school children should be taught by their philosophy?
Evolution is not philosophy. It is a science and it's taught in science classes. Christianity is a philosophy and does not belong in science classes.
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That's what you believe anyway
Yes, because it is based in reality not on wishes or any other form of imagination like your philosophy.
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Again, I can go around the neighborhood and do a census. I bet 90 percent would say God created the world.
Just to clarify, I think you mean the God in Christianity and if you do and I pick the neighborhood I could guarantee a total failure for anyone to agree with you.
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I don't think you really believe that either. To be honest I go to church for selfish reasons. I want to be happy
If I didn't believe it I wouldn't have said it. As a personal observation you seem happiest when you have a target to be angry over. That's my opinion there, about something I believe.
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All we need to know there are a lot of things that God makes abundantly clear as to what is wrong and what is right.
Those things happened to be awfully convenient to the priests deciding what belonged in that book.
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Have you ever stopped to consider it's not my version of the truth, or your version of the truth that matters but God's?
Not my version-okay. Not your version-okay. God's version-not okay. God is a product of someone else's version.
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I was just referring to understanding the Bible from a Christian perspective.
If I read that right, nobody else is spiritual or experiences spirituality except for Christians? Another wonderful convenience.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 11 Jul 2008 03:35 |
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Feel free to look over all my arguments with Tim here and try and tell me I should look at it any other way So what do you do with someone like me? Someone who has been on both sides of the issue? Mind you, I am hardly someone you would want to point to as an example of perfect Christianity. Truth is, I'm just a mangy old cur dog that the Lord redeemed. But I suspect that in my natural state Pak, you and I are a lot closer to being cut from the same cloth than you and Tim. So what do you do with something like that?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 11 Jul 2008 04:53 |
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So what do you do with something like that?
Learn.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 11 Jul 2008 15:47 |
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Evolution is not philosophy. It is a science and it's taught in science classes. Christianity is a philosophy and does not belong in science classes. By your own admission you are not a scientist, yet you trust in your own knowledge to declare evolution a science. Not trying to be a smarty pants but you can't call it a science and then when I ask tough questions go back to the fall back position of not being a scientist.
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If I read that right, nobody else is spiritual or experiences spirituality except for Christians? Another wonderful convenience.
How could I believe the Bible, and yet at the same time not believe the Bible when it says, Jesus is the only way to heaven. Should I believe Jesus died for nothing because other religions claim there are other ways to heaven.
The point is there is only one truth. There aren't a 1000 ways to heaven. Can you imagine someone claiming to believe every religion at the same time? You can't believe everything. Every philosophy or religion can't be correct at the same time when they contradict each other.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 11 Jul 2008 19:10 |
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but you can't call it a science and then when I ask tough questions go back to the fall back position of not being a scientist.
I can call football a sport without playing it, yes?
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The point is there is only one truth
Yes, and Odin is going to be pissed you missed so badly. Wait, Allah is mumbling something about a jihad. Alot of different people with different 'truths' are all spouting the same nonsense. At the very least, most of us are wrong.
I do wonder how your truth is the one true word when it was a collection of eyewitness accounts about Jesus from a number of people who never even met him, each of differing languages and positions in society in different times, could be voted on by committee many many years after the events therein, nevermind when they were written. Also take into account that just about every piece of that book fits very nicely with what any priest or pastor would want from you, the devoted slave. Also take into account how much has to be apologised for just to get through a normal discussion about it-"You have to read it a certain way/you have to understand what was really meant when they said this,etc etc etc". Now take into account that after all the editing and apologising we still have a book which constantly contradicts itself. Take into account that just about every nuance of this book has been shown to be borrowed or flatout stolen from other 'truths'-mainly Judaism and Pagan but they take liberties with everything they had up til then. Take into account what people believing this tripe as 'truth' have done in the name of it. Take into account the hundreds of factions that fall under the umbrella of what Christianity is supposedly and still tell me it's 'one truth'. That's insanity.
Religious texts to me are evil in word and deed-that's a truth I can believe in.
As for the way to heaven? I really want you to study your bible thoroughly and write down everything you actually would need to do to get to there instead of that simpleton platitude 'go through Jesus' like he's a new age travel agent. I am thoroughly convinced you've only read the parts selected for you and will be shocked at what you find, should you actually read the damn book.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 11 Jul 2008 20:55 Last Edited By: Tim |
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I can call football a sport without playing it, yes?
Yeah, but I think you are looking a bunch of kids playing ball in a backlot and thinking it's an official NFL game.
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Religious texts to me are evil in word and deed-that's a truth I can believe in.
Is "Love thy neighbor as thyself" evil?
"Thou shalt not kill"
"Thou shalt not steal"
The Bible isn't wrong because some people misuse it for unjust purposes. That goes back to what I told you about the founding fathers of our country wanting to make sure that our citizens were educated enough to read the Bible for themselves.
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As for the way to heaven? I really want you to study your bible thoroughly and write down everything you actually would need to do to get to there instead of that simpleton platitude 'go through Jesus' like he's a new age travel agent. I am thoroughly convinced you've only read the parts selected for you and will be shocked at what you find, should you actually read the damn book.
It pretty much is that simple bro.
JOH 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
JOH 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
JOH 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Now how can you make that into anything else? Just believe in God's Son. That's it. It doesn't say believe and do good works till you die.
And dude, I happen to have read the bible through cover to cover in order several times.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 11 Jul 2008 21:22 |
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Yeah, but I think you are looking a bunch of kids playing ball in a backlot and thinking it's an official NFL game.
Only people wishing or looking at things in 'special ways' get that rap, like evangelicals. If you're gonna start being a jerk, you're going to get it right back in short order. You stay civil and I'll do the same, bro.
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The Bible isn't wrong because some people misuse it for unjust purposes
If the perfect and infallible word of God CAN be misused for ANY purpose, it is automatically imperfect and fallible.
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That goes back to what I told you about the founding fathers
Most of what you've ever mentioned here about our founding fathers was questionable at best. It was a secular government then, more than now.
Quoting a small set of lines of scripture doesn't prove a thing.
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Malachi 2:3 2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
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And dude, I happen to have read the bible through cover to cover in order several times.
When I brought up slavery you had no idea what I was talking about and a while ago you told me that God was mad at Adam and Eve for being naked. As wrong as the 'country being created Christian' insanity.
Maybe you're not doing it right. Maybe your special way to read it is wrong. Maybe it's just a bad book.
That's for you to figure out.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 11 Jul 2008 21:44 |
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when I ask tough questions
That kinda stuck with me after I logged off. You've got some nerve complaining about someone supposedly not answering questions. Never mind the zoo question I asked recently, which you've avoided. I asked a long time ago for the science in the book of Genesis. I had gathered already you didn't have an answer as there is none to give but you were a little cowardly in not even acknowledging you didn't know. The same thing occurred when I asked for a display of human rights anywhere in the bible. No answer as expected because there is none to list, but again the same cowardly silence and lack of even an acknowledgment. I admit when I make a mistake. Please don't insult me that way again.
On a side note between this post and the one I just did: I had asked about women's rights and you did give me an answer. A man should love his wife as he loves his church. This was all you had but at least it was an answer.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 11 Jul 2008 22:54 |
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I happen to have read the bible through cover to cover in order several times
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It doesn't say believe and do good works till you die.
A quick search...in the right places....
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And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. -- Revelation 20:12-13 A record of deeds done.
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Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- James 2:17 Words are hollow.
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Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. -- Matthew 7:21
That one says bypass Jesus to me. How about you?
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I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. -- Jeremiah 17:10
Honest pay for honest work.
etc etc etc
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 11 Jul 2008 23:36 |
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From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States
Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestants Constitutional Convention delegates, 28 were Episcopalian, 8 were Presbyterians, 7 were Congregationalists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Dutch Reformed, and 2 were Methodists. Many of the more prominent Founding Fathers were vocal about their opposition to organized religion or anti-clerical, such as Jefferson. Some of them often related their anti-organized church leanings in their speeches and correspondence, including George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin. However, a few of the more notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of traditional Deists, including Franklin, Jefferson, and Ethan Allen.[11]
Although not a religion, Freemasonry was represented in John Blair, Benjamin Franklin, James Mchenry, George Washington, Abraham Baldwin, Gunning Bedford, William Blount, David Brearly, Daniel Carroll, Jonathan Dayton, Rufus King, John Langdon, George Read, Roger Sherman, James Madison, Robert Morris, William Paterson, and Charles Pinckney.
Notwithstanding the spectrum of beliefs held by the Founding Fathers, their speeches indeed contain statements in which they describe religion's role in molding "national morality" and securing the rule of law(George Washington), its check on human "wickedness" (Benjamin Franklin), and its preservation of a free government such as America (John Adams). This, of course, can be attributed to the maxim that for the people religion is dear, but for the government it is merely useful. Jefferson, in particular was hostile toward many aspects of contemporary Christianity. This can be seen, for instance, in a letter of Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, dated March 13, 1789, in which Jefferson states: "I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.". In correspondence with John Adams, Jefferson says "The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills". In yet another letter, to Correa de Serra, dated April 11, 1820, Jefferson stated: "Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live".
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 12 Jul 2008 01:00 |
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And....? No one here has made the claim that every significant political figure of the Founding was a Bible-believing Christian. But only a fool would take the position that the Bible wasn't a huge influence. It's significant that there is a Bible verse on the Liberty Bell and not some quote from Voltaire or Plato.
And everyone's favorite deist/agnostic (depending on who's quoting him) Thomas Jefferson also saidQuote:
"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice can not sleep forever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference!"[
What this has to do with the Big Bang is where I'm a bit fuzzy.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 12 Jul 2008 01:26 |
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Quote:
But only a fool would take the position that the Bible wasn't a huge influence
Then call me a fool because I do see a difference between religious belief in general and any one text for any specific belief. There is a distinction. Deists and even atheists(whatever title they be given by others) had just as much at stake as evangelicals. Freedom of belief should include freedom from belief and judging by the smorgasbord of philosophies, everyone had an equal stake.
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What this has to do with the Big Bang is where I'm a bit fuzzy.
That was put there as a response to the post it answers. It has nothing to do with the big bang but I felt compelled to answer a portion of a certain post. I'd be hard pressed to find a thread on here with more than 5 posts that stays on the original intended topic. Perhaps I shouldn't stray off but if I leave something unanswered it's pointedly a 'sign of weakness' on my part as has been accused before. I'll gladly stay on topic when everyone can do the same.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 12 Jul 2008 15:50 |
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Then call me a fool because I do see a difference between religious belief in general and any one text for any specific belief. There is a distinction. Deists and even atheists(whatever title they be given by others) had just as much at stake as evangelicals. Freedom of belief should include freedom from belief and judging by the smorgasbord of philosophies, everyone had an equal stake. I agree, and I think that sentiment you expressed is at the heart of the First Amendment.
But what we are seeing nowadays as we become a more secular society is that religious beliefs that would have been accepted in the public square no longer are. What do you think would happen if you tried to put a Bible verse on a public monument (a la Liberty Bell) nowadays? There are those that would scream about the Establishment Clause and separation of church and state , etc, etc. Maybe they have a point, but why wasn't it such a big deal in the 1700's? Why wasn't it a threat to the republic back then?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 12 Jul 2008 15:57 |
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Why wasn't it a threat to the republic back then?
Who says it wasn't?
I've been trying to get together some information on what Islam is doing in Europe right now. If people don't get some focus very fast, we are in trouble.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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