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| Posted: 30 Jun 2008 16:49 |
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Evolution has evidence and does not require faith to be true and continues to be true whether people believe or not. Pak I hope you don't feel double teamed since at the moment you are getting questions from me and Preach, but where is the evidence to support a big bang? I think I've pointed out that the materials necessary for a super explosion, whatever they may be, to have pre-existed is a leap of faith as all natural laws would prevent them from simply just being at the time of the big bang.
As science the big bang theory is nothing more than a false religion/scientific theory created to give men a way to reject God.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 30 Jun 2008 17:32 |
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As an atheist I feel constantly outnumbered. At least here my opposition is just (mainly) the two of you in a mostly friendly environment. That there are times when we actually agree on different subjects and coexist here in this small group gives me great hope for mankind in general to finally coexist with different ideas and brands of common sense.
In response to your question, I have to repeat that I am not a scientist. They(the scientific community) are the ones with the evidence and if you sincerely want that evidence you will have to check with them.
To my understanding the theory is a means to understand the origin of thise universe and is neither pro or con religion of any sort. Your church, your spiritual leaders or your own personal biases make it an opposition or contrarian attack-not the theory itself. You'll notice I didn't say the bible right there because the story of Genesis does not oppose the big bang theory as it does not detail how God supposedly performed the creation of anything and therefore leaves the theory as a possible way that God 'got it done'.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 30 Jun 2008 21:32 |
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I think the Genesis account is pretty straight forward though. It shows the world was created in a 6 day period of time not billions of years. It also says that God spoke the world into existence.
I look at it like this. I believe God created the world by faith. I understand people have different upbringings, different veiw points etc. So when I question evolution and the big bang theory with you I'm trying to look at it from a very basic level. If we pretend we have no bias and we examine the world through that view point I think at the very least the big bang theory is a big bust logically speaking.
That doesn't prove my beliefs about God instantly but from the arguments I've given you I'm reasonably sure that there is really no foundation for the big bang or evolution. Yet scientists cling to these wild theories almost religiously. I feel it's a more of some kind of political almost strange cultish type environment that has been created in the scientific community toward the beginning of the world.
It's just that scientists can't look at the evidence without any prejudice because they have in a sense declared war against God, and to admit that their theories might not hold water would be to lose the political wars they have been trying to fight.
They are more worried about losing evolution to the classroom than whether or not it has any legitimate evidence to teach it in the first place. It's all become a political rather than scientific struggle.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 30 Jun 2008 23:53 |
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I think the Genesis account is pretty straight forward though. It shows the world was created in a 6 day period of time not billions of years. It also says that God spoke the world into existence.
Creation of the world/universe and evolution are 2 different things. Trying to ignore that doesn't change it just like your side doesn't prove anything when they pretend by making up stories about it. We do have evidence of things on this planet more than a billion years ago which destroys the notion of a young earth which isn't in your bible either but you guys love to push on the rest of us as fact just the same. If you want to debate that, please show me where the bible says how old the earth is.
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If we pretend we have no bias and we examine the world through that view point I think at the very least the big bang theory is a big bust logically speaking.
Study the big bang theory and evolution without the huge bias of your religious beliefs and get back to me. This is something you have ass backwards every time you bring it up. The scientific community isn't bringing anti-religion to the table-your religious groups are manufacturing that dissent and when they don't you guys do it as individuals, even when you make that up yourselves.
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I'm reasonably sure that there is really no foundation for the big bang or evolution
See above. Choosing to be ignorant on something doesn't make it untrue or biased or hateful or any other judgement you've been trained to say.
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evolution to the classroom than whether or not it has any legitimate evidence
Creationism is out of the classroom because it lacks evidence and until it gets disproven, evolution isn't going anywhere.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Jul 2008 15:25 |
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See above. Choosing to be ignorant on something doesn't make it untrue or biased or hateful or any other judgement you've been trained to say. If there was a foundation. You could tell me how those gases were already there to ignite that big bang couldn't you?
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Creationism is out of the classroom because it lacks evidence and until it gets disproven, evolution isn't going anywhere. You missed the point doc!
Evolutionists are so busy worried they are going to lose the classroom they aren't even looking at the evidence before them with an objective view. It's all politics.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 01 Jul 2008 16:27 |
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You could tell me how those gases were already there to ignite that big bang
Study the subject yourself. You haven't 'got it' yet.
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Evolutionists are so busy worried they are going to lose the classroom
Still not a group of people labeled evolutionists.
They still would gain more by disproving Darwin.
The objective view you keep wanting them to have has already been put into consideration time and again. The creationist view has already been deemed unscientific. Years later they switched the name to creation science and it got trounced again. Years after that it became Intelligent Design and got it's ass kicked again.
Every time the subject comes up, regardless of the title you put on it, the result is the same. There is nothing scientific in the story of Genesis and therefore does not belong in a science class. Feel free to teach it at home, take your kids to church and let them learn about it there or better yet, pay for the schooling yourself at a private school that teaches whatever you want. If it ever sees light again in a secular school it would have to be in a philosophy class or english class when they study other mythologies.
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It's all politics.
I disagree there but even if it were political, so what?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Jul 2008 17:27 |
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Study the subject yourself. You haven't 'got it' yet. No offense but I don't think you do either or you'd tell me.
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I disagree there but even if it were political, so what? The point being that science should be based on facts and evidence not political temperaments.
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The creationist view has already been deemed unscientific. Not a difficult feet when you consider the people who deemed it unscientific are already politically and emotionally attached to evolution. They can't see it any other way. It's not because of the facts, but their own personal feelings and agendas. Do you really think evolutionists are unbiased?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 01 Jul 2008 18:28 |
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Creationism is out of the classroom because it lacks evidence But when evidence is presented, it gets dismissed by evolutionists who claim somehow that the evidence is automatically tainted. Evolutionists have done a masterful job of framing the discussion so that only evidence that they approve of gets counted as evidence.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 01 Jul 2008 19:45 |
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The point being that science should be based on facts and evidence not political temperaments
Since it already is, I'm not sure what you're getting at.
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when you consider the people who deemed it unscientific
Those would be scientists and not politicians and they are going on facts and evidence, not their personal beliefs.
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when evidence is presented
What specific evidence has been presented and denied as evidence?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 01 Jul 2008 22:37 |
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Tim, posted a 2 part video of the introduction to the big bang theory, hence, provided all the answers you could need about what it is.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 02 Jul 2008 01:42 |
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You know , Pak, all of us have a 'style' here, for lack of a better term, and in your postings you seem to assume that those of us on the other side of the issue are simply uninformed and that if we did enough homework we'd line up with you. I find that kind of amusing since I come from an agnostic/atheistic background and was fairly well-versed in this stuff by the time I reached college age. I also probably read 2 or 3 evolutionary books a year until maybe the last year or so. I think I read one of Richard Dawkins books this year. So trust me, at least for me, it's not an issue of being uninformed.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 02 Jul 2008 03:27 |
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I have not and would not consider you uninformed preach and I don't consider myself smarter than either of you-no dummy but not any more priveleged with brains either. That's not what that is about.
You'll notice when that 'style' arises it is at Tim who asks me questions when he apparently did not want an answer in the first place or just ignores the answers when I post them. I'm not any more fond of repeating myself than anyone else and this winds up being a major portion of my talks with him unfortunately.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 02 Jul 2008 13:34 |
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Fair enough.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 02 Jul 2008 14:48 |
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You'll notice when that 'style' arises it is at Tim who asks me questions when he apparently did not want an answer in the first place or just ignores the answers when I post them. I'm not any more fond of repeating myself than anyone else and this winds up being a major portion of my talks with him unfortunately. Pak all I've been asking is one simple one sentence answerable question. Where did the magic gases and matter come from to create the Big Bang? If you don't get it either how can you believe that jive?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 03 Jul 2008 01:43 |
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There are no 'magic' anything in the big bang theory.
Nobody knows where all that matter came from in that 'point' because they can't quite explain gravity just yet(yes gravity, that stuff we take for granted). Some folks are blaming it on a deity or two.
I hope you know after watching those vids there was no explosion either, just a 'rapid' expansion.
I believe that 'jive' because it's a better explanation than any of the other bullshit floating around.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 03 Jul 2008 17:10 |
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Hmmm those videos sounded like a bunch of gibberish made up to sound impressive. Didn't seem like the point was to clearly answer questions. If I took enough time I could write something that sounded immensely impressive and educated but really actually say nothing at all too.
I like things that go straight to the point as much as possible.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 03 Jul 2008 18:05 |
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If I took enough time I could write something that sounded immensely impressive and educated but really actually say nothing at all too.
Can you write something that can be proven and disproven though on a topic that people are actually concerned about?
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I like things that go straight to the point as much as possible.
That's as straightforward as it's going to get here in the realm of reality.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 05 Jul 2008 16:25 |
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No it's not. If it were straight forward I could play it to any body with a 10th grade education and they would instantly know exactly what it was all about. He could have condensed the whole point of the videos into 10 seconds and instead of dragging it out for 20 minutes to sound smart. A lot of fancy words don't impress me. Just the facts as Joe Friday used to say.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 06 Jul 2008 04:49 |
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You want it dumbed down for 10th graders and not necessarily the best truth we possess or honesty.....
tough.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2008 13:45 |
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Not dumbed down. In English pak, english. A speaker that gets to the bottom line makes his point. I think that some of the evolution guys would like to hide their main point behind a barrage of words so no one can come back on them.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 07 Jul 2008 19:41 |
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It is in English and they've made their point about what they're sure of at this time.
It's not easy. Nobody should think that it is.
Pardon the imagery but it seems somewhat appropriate.
Imagine in your mind a zoo. In that zoo is a monkey house. The monkeys in that house are actually self-sufficient, thriving and even advancing in certain areas. Some of these monkeys have started questioning a few odd things. 'What are we here for?' 'What is here?' 'Where did we come from?' etc
Everyone started to think up answers to these questions as they thought of them or someone else presented them. This is an odd zoo without visitors mind you, but just for an example.
So here's my question to you now. How will the monkeys in the cage determine how the zoo was built?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 10 Jul 2008 16:44 |
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Assuming these apes are really smart apes, I would think they would ask who built or designed the zoo. I'm sure they wouldn't come to the conclusion an explosion created the zoo.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 10 Jul 2008 17:03 |
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I already implied they would ask and I didn't ask how they would not go about doing so.
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How will the monkeys in the cage determine how the zoo was built?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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