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| Posted: 03 Oct 2007 18:15 |
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Captain America
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As always, well argued … and well over the heads of many of the folks here.
Libertarianism is a utopian pipedream, though strains of it are good. I feel the same about socialism, and though I think the two are diametrically opposed. Both in small ways can serve our nation well.
Libertarianism in private conduct is great. Socialism in helping support the poor and weak are great.
But both as the only paths are bunk.
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| Posted: 04 Oct 2007 04:59 |
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Quote:
The real moral of the story is that modern life, usually not being
nasty, brutish or short here in the west- means an integatred system by which
we all work to gether for our indiviual ends.
I tend to give Adam Smith's 'invisible hand' a lot of the credit for that.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 04 Oct 2007 05:00 |
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Well, we certainly milked this cow, didn't we?
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 04 Oct 2007 16:09 |
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First, I think Cap nailed it. We don't want communism or completely unfettered Capitalism. Neither one offers economic freedom in the end. But an appropriate mix could be just what the doctor ordered...
Quote:
I tend to give Adam Smith's 'invisible hand'a lot of the credit for that.
I know ya do. So do I. But remember- I said integrated system.
If we're all going to drive cars in this country- we're going to have to have some sort of system behind it. I don't credit most people I've had encounters with on the interstate as having enough self preservation not to take us all out in a blaze of glory. The market crash of '29 and pretty much every recession since then has tended to remind people that we're all in this
together- like it or not.
Survival of the fittest doesn't mean a person won't continue to live amongst
the unfit.
Furthermore, such Darwinian ideas make a lot of sense until you apply them to
national politics.
I mean, look who ended up President. (For those who still like that guy-
look who ended up President before him!)
As a final point, I direct you to this story from
ABC
News, in which the President might as well have kicked a puppy on
national television.
He didn't mind
bridge
projects in Alaska that nobody seemed to need or want. But when it came
down to children's health care- was this only his third or fourth veto?
Now which seems more important? The health of children from working
families across the country, or making sure 50 people living on an island in
Alaska are not inconvienced?
Personally, I feel that the 50 Alaskans could move if the boat ride truely
bugged them. I bet they could do so a lot faster than those kids can pull
themselves up by the bootstaps to get healthcare.
I just don't understand this guy- I really don't.
Anyway, the point is- unfettered Capitalism doesn't stop money from going
where it shouldn't. We're as close to unfettered as you're going to find
amongst industiralized nations, but we also obviously have some issues which
stem from that. If you're going to have a government that
spends money, at least get them to spend on people who need it.
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| Posted: 04 Oct 2007 16:21 |
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Captain America
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Danny, that was pretty damn sensible.
Yeah, the SCHIP veto (his fourth) was unnecessary … and pretty cruel. Notice how unlike his other vetoes, he did this one with no fanfare. As well, many Republicans were on board with the SCHIP expansion. Dems may have an override in the Senate, but not in the House.
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| Posted: 07 Oct 2007 05:33 |
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This will probably surprise no one.
I agree with the President's veto. I agree with his reasoning behind the veto. what I disagree with was his failure to veto McCain-Feingold, the Medicare prescription drug ban, and scores of other legislative stupidity that floated across his desk, including the pork-laden budgets that the Republicans kept handing him. It was almost as if he forgot where he put the veto pen for the first 5 or 6 years in office.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 07 Oct 2007 05:40 |
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With all due respect Danny, it always puzzles me to see otherwise rational people defend the virtues "of just a little communism", no matter how many mass graves it fills. Communism, and it's ugly kid sister socialism are never happy to be just a little. It is an ideology of slow creeping conquest that slowly constricts and squeezes out freedom.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 07 Oct 2007 08:16 |
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Capitalism has filled more than its share of graves. I don't advocate any measure of communism, but I also don't advocate a capitalism gone mad.
When Alan Greenspan says the war is all about money, I listen. Of course, I've had that suspicion all along- being unable to logically determine any other reason why it could have been conducted the way it has, if at all.
Many estimates of civilian and military casualties in Iraq put the death toll above or quickly approaching one million people. At least some of those unjust deaths were produced by a mercenary army with no oversight and few if any competitors.
I'm a big fan of capitalism, but not when it goes that far.
The only rational motive I can come up with for Iraq, is that it is another example of our politicians being bought off, as are our CEOs, in a vast network of cash changing that no one can stop. That's all I got for Iraq. I can't see any other logical motive for us being there.
Now, as every time before in history- the only thing that can form a flood wall against a powerful tide of evil is a system of checks and balances. There must be a balance. I don't call that communism. I call it organizational survival. You won't find an ideology that isn't corrupted when left unchecked.
if that isn't a component of libertarian political-economic views then that is just where I part ways with liberitarians. I don't see anything other than checks and balances as a producer of freedom or the good life. Capitalism is not immune to over-indulgence.
If our government and our media are totally bought off by corporations then it matters little what any individual's interpretation of justice is. They won't find anywhere to achieve it. I am increasingly afraid that this is the case in our society today.
Certainly there are those who disagree. There are people who make a good case for everything working just as it should. Now, I can only account for what I see and research but I see ordinary Americans having to dig through so much BS to get to the truth these days, that the task becomes impossible. That is in spite of living in the midst of an information boom.
If flag draped caskets are not being hidden from us- then some sort of wild spin is applied. Up is down, black is white. I was listening to a news person flat out repeat with an expressionless face that Condolezza Rice says the US does not torture, and yes- Ms. Rice says she has read the memos from Alberto Gonzales in 2005 that condone acts that amount to torture. Where ARE we?
Maybe the world has always been this way- but I can certainly say for this era- if information isn't your job- if one is busy doing something else to stay alive- generally, they're getting snowed.
This post wasn't supposed to be about the Bush administration. But it became that because they are a fantastic example of an administration that has rolled back all sorts of left wing policies and somehow- as a society we are less informed and less free. Between the current economic policies in America and those attempted by the administration in Iraq's economy- we should be in lassiez-faire heaven...but we're not. Somehow we and they are both LESS free.
To me, the answer is simple- we cannot expect justice by clinging to one ideology. It has flaws, just like everything else. And like the flaws of communism, the powerful people in a capitalist society WILL exploit those flaws if we don't find a way to check this behavior.
Now, somewhat on that note- I am surprised that you agree with the President's veto. Seriously, I would like to see the other side of this argument, and I trust you to make it better than the President. (No kidding, and not bashing him for the sake of it...)
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| Posted: 08 Oct 2007 15:08 |
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Quote:
I can't see any other logical motive for us being there. Well, my reasoning for supporting the Iraqi campaign has already been posted. I stand by it. And so much for this not being about Iraq, although I was impressed with how long we avoided the topic.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 08 Oct 2007 17:40 Last Edited By: Danny |
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My bad- we did land in Iraq again. But that's just where we are as a society. With respect to you opinion Preacher Man, I just don't believe that Iraq was a rational action any single way one slices it until you bring in the money equation.
Furthermore, even in the slim chance that isn't the case- it is certainly how people across the Middle East feel about us.
Increasingly, we are forgetting all the reasons for which we are on this planet in the name of making a buck. And for those of us who are not wealthy, this short sighted strategy is not paying off.
I often hear conservatives long for a golden era of family values. Some of them blame the left for the breakdown, some blame a lack of faith- but I think the answer is far simpler than that.
The market can do a lot of good things- but it is terrible at raising children.
Kids do not have the rational choice mechanisms of functioning adults. But if you turn on the television this instant- you'll notice they are prime targets.
Not surprisingly, many of the youth are overweight, the girls are dressed like prostitutes and the boys are big fans of passively achieved violence through video games. They don't even have the get up and go to leave the house and kill real animals like the budding psychopaths of yesteryear.
Where are the parents? Brainwashed by their own need to keep up with the Joneses, they're both working longer hours than anyone in the free world.
Note that in the 50's, so often cited by the right as the moral target our country should be shooting for, the market's circumstances were different.
The family was supported by one income, so the mother was home. Teenagers were still subject to the same pressures, hateful behavior and temptations as now- but when they weren't the subject of 24 hour marketing campaigns- at least adults who cared about their well being had SOME influence in their lives. People didn't have the benefits of our nutrition science or a gym on every corner- but somehow they weren't fat as elephants.
I would never advocate dropping the TV or Internet from the lives of our young people. I was raised in this environment myself and nobody's going to take South Park away from me. But it isn't so much the shows- it is the constant barrage of "GET MORE" that is killing our country, and we wouldn't be a bit worse off in this country if our kids were left out of that. The economy of the 50's and 60's was second to none.
Ultimately, it is up to every generation to determine the sort of world they want to live in. But I think in this country- we've got to start realizing that the market is not our friend or our enemy, but just an amoral concept that can only be trusted to an extent. If we make a full blown ideology of it- well... you know what happened with that golden calf. And though I hate to bring it up again, we ARE wandering in the desert....
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| Posted: 08 Oct 2007 18:02 |
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This weekend, my girlfriend and I were looking for a way to do something fun and save some money. We feel like we just throw too much away on frivolous junk and eating out.
We went on a bike ride through DC, and found some things we otherwise would have missed. The best of these, we both felt, was the FDR memorial.
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| Posted: 08 Oct 2007 18:17 |
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That's cool so you can ride bikes in DC and see all the sites, huh? I'd love to do that. So do they have good bike trails or do you have to worry about getting hit by cars?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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