Yes, a little kid brought a two-inch toy gun to school that fits in the plastic hand of his lego doll. Oh no run for your life. The principle thought it was no joke and threatened to punish the kid.
No action was taken against the kid's friend who was toy action doll had a miniature plastic ax. Why not, couldn't someone have pretended to be cut? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 04 Feb 2010 21:06
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You have to wonder about these zero tolerance policies at schools today. Does it also mean zero brains?
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Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 05 Feb 2010 06:47
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Same issue, flip side of the coin. How much is too much? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 08 Feb 2010 21:01
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I guess one could point out that rules are rules, and if a toy is inappropriate for school it's inappropriate for school.
It is a silly policy, but so is letting children bring toys to school.
come kids, have a little imaginative play for once in your MTV fueld lives.
At the end of the day, a school has rules, whether it is a dress code, or liability policy, the school sets rules, and the kids have to follow them. Because they are kids, and those are the rules.
When they grow up and become educators they can create their own pedagogical system, and their own rules, and woe to the children that violate those.
All rules are silly in the extreame. But it is the collection of rules as whole that give us society.
You say, let the kid bring his two inch gun to school, then it's the kid with the three inch gun, and then it's the kid with the bb gun, and who can interfer with a child's second amendement right to bring in their dad's Ak47 for show and tell.
Posted: 12 Feb 2010 15:52
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It's common sense. People used to make decisions and react based on what was in front of them. Like the gun thing. Worst case you ask the kid to put it away. Don't bring it to school no more. End of problem. If he doesn't then problem escalates.
Rules are important but if the people in charge forget that the rules are there to help the kids then they are missing the whole point.
It's like how would we like it if we got pulled over for running a red light and instead of getting a ticket we went straight to jail. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 12 Feb 2010 15:58
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About tasers they should only be used if the cop can't physically contain the suspect. Tasing a suspect in hand cuffs is stupid. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 12 Feb 2010 21:14
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Well...Tim, it all depends (man you seem to love running those Reds). You run a red light, and you run over a kid, you probably should go to jail.
Now the next question is, is the action you took with disregard to public saftey worse if you run over a kid or if you just drove through the red light with a reckless disregard to public safety.
Now really, I personally don't care for zero tollerance, but if you are going to have it, you have to enforce it. And if you say, no guns, real or toy at school, then no guns at school.
It's called discipline, kids need it.
You can say the punishment is too severe, well that as may be, but let's face it, you either have the rule or you don't. If a kid brings an unloaded rifle to school in direct violation of the rules, the kid should be punished for their willfull violation of school policy. If a child in protest brings a 2 inch plastic gun school in willfull violation of school policy, the same punishment should apply.
If you start saying, well it's not so bad, well then the next kid says well how is my violation of the rules so bad, and eventually you don't have the rule at all.
I agree rules should make sense, and perhaps you can argue that this rule doesn't make sense, since it is a rule for a child I really don't care that it doesn't make sense, only that the kids are given a set code to follow and that they are given even and equal punishment for their violations of those rules.
That's the thing you look at the failure of the policy (sort of like how people point out the failure of drug policies that imprison nonviolent offenders) and you see it as a cause to throw out the baby with the bath water. I see it differntly, the rules are what you have to live by in society. And so long as the rules are not stepping on my rights as a citizen, I have no problem following the rules.
I do not see how this rule violates the rights of the citizens of the United States, so I see no problem with letting that municipality set it's own rules for its school.
Posted: 17 Feb 2010 22:13
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Common sense response that's all I advocate here. Perhaps it's something that is lost with old fashioned country hillbilly types like Andy Taylor. I know it's TV but living in this day and age it's the only tie with have to good old fashioned common sense. I don't even think Andy Griffith himself remembers how to use it since he helped Opie Cunningham push Obama on that commercial of his.
As far as red lights. I never said I willfully run lights. I'm upset because with cameras, if I barely miss getting by a light that just happens to turn yellow as I was almost under it, I might end up with a ticket. And I don't like the idea of big brother policing every little aspect of our lives via a camera. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 18 Feb 2010 18:10
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Yes...well...contrary to popular belief. Green Means go, Red Means stop, but Yellow does not infact mean go very fast.
See when the light turns from green to yellow, that is to inform you that the light will soon be turning red and that you should prepare to stop shortly.
By following the rules you avoid the unwary driver who seeing they have the green motor on through, and also avoid tickets even when doled out by the robots who aren't interested in how close you were to making the light.
Common sense is fine, and I'm an advocate for it too, but common sense comes into play at the rule making stage, not the enforcement stage. Once you make the rule you have to enforce it equally, because as I said, that 3 inch plastic gun was no more dangerous than an unloaded assault riffle. Children are given a lot of arbitrary rules and are expected to respect them. If a child doesn't respect their elders then they should be punished by what ever punishment the local community deem appropriate.
If you start making exceptions for one, you will soon be making exceptions for all, and eventually why have the law at all?
If I say, it's o.k. man run the light, because it just turned 1 second ago, then the guy who runs it 1 second later is going to make the same plea. If the only rule we have is don't wind up kiling someone, someone is going to get killed because of that negligence.
You know its funny, when the question is marriage, the law and rule is sacrosanct and reasonable debate is unacceptable, but as soon as the rules imping on your freedom, suddenly the state is just stomping on the little guy.
Funny how that works.
Posted: 19 Feb 2010 21:50 Last Edited By: Tim
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I was kind of thinking the exact opposite about your position.
Dude, it's like this. If you get right up to the light while going the speed limit or slower it's possible to get stuck from where it first turns yellow and hits red.
Once you get so close to it you can't stop once you've gotten almost under it. Two you have to always be careful the guy behind you doesn't hit your back from stopping too suddenly.
And on the kid thing again. I look at it like this. People are more important than rules. Rules are important don't get me wrong, but if rules become more important than the people they were meant to help or protect we've become no better than a bunch of commies.
There's a very important quality the Bible teaches especially in the New Testament. It's called mercy.
The spirit of the law comes into question as well. A person in charge or a law enforcer has to think about that when they go to enforcing said law or rule. It's the difference between a human being and a computer. Maybe in this world of computers ruling everything maybe we are forgetting how to be human. Watch a few episodes of the black and white Andy Griffith show sometime especially the ones where Barney Fife goes crazy writing tickets and puts half the town in jail to Andy's shock and horror. Maybe you'll get my meaning. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 19 Feb 2010 22:24 Last Edited By: Matches
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No I get your meaning. your meaning is, rules are for "other people".
After all, I can handle my coke use, it's those crazy crackheads you need to arrest.
I'm sorry, traffic lights are designed so that IF you are going the speed limit, you can safely stop between Green and Red once yellow flashes. The issue is when you try to run a yellow and it turns red on you.
Hey we all love to make that yellow, but it's a gamble, and as the Hotelier at Haras will tell you, gambling is the safest investment there is. Oh, no wait, it's not. You gamble there is a good chance you'll lose, and personally I'd rather have an impartial robot calling the balls and strikes than a cop looking to make quota, or looking to call a sunny day foul because he doesn't like the cut of your jib.
Again, Mercy is great, I'm a big proponant of mercy for those gay men and women looking to just enjoy the bonds of matramony that I enjoy. Letting them visit their sick loved one in the hostpital and letting them raise a family in a loving environment, but local laws have decided differntly, and as much as I dislike that law, we are bound by it.
The kid had a rule he had to follow. Letting kids break the rules because the want to sends the wrong messages to kids.
Posted: 19 Feb 2010 23:07
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Quote: Two you have to always be careful the guy behind you doesn't hit your back from stopping too suddenly.
As a cabbie for over 60 hours a week and for nearly a decade now, I have to interject here. That's their job, not yours and if both of you were driving safely, you would have nothing to worry about. Safely does mean at least getting it near the speed limit(they do give you leeway of about +/-5mph) and safely does not extend to everyone 'eating' lights or not following at a safe distance.
Quote: People are more important than rules. Rules are important don't get me wrong, but if rules become more important than the people they were meant to help or protect we've become no better than a bunch of commies.
There's a very important quality the Bible teaches especially in the New Testament. It's called mercy.
You've got a contradiction on your hands or you mean(even by accident) that God runs the place as a communist leader. Care to fix this? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 24 Feb 2010 21:43
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Quote: Again, Mercy is great, I'm a big proponant of mercy for those gay men and women looking to just enjoy the bonds of matramony that I enjoy.
So the way you put it, in order for you to come to my way of seeing this, I have to agree to gay marriage. How does a kid getting suspended from school for a trivial offense lead to gay marriage? I would think that grown men and women would know better. You have more worries over spoiled grownups that act like kids than kids that haven't had a chance to grow up yet.
Quote: Letting them visit their sick loved one in the hostpital
Isn't that something that should be taken up with a hospital. If there's no health issues here then why don't they let everybody see sick people anytime they want? And if they really don't let anybody in then how do preachers always manage to see sick people at hospitals? I'm reasonably sure there's not a new law needed for every issue.
Quote: Safely does mean at least getting it near the speed limit(they do give you leeway of about +/-5mph) and safely does not extend to everyone 'eating' lights or not following at a safe distance.
As much as I don't trust the judgment of people, I really don't trust a camera to catch the truth in terms of whether or not I deserve a ticket.
And I know you pak have said in the past you didn't like cameras even when they were used to catch rapes. I'm pretty sure that would mean you don't like red light cameras.
Besides just because the law says if someone hits me from behind it's their fault doesn't mean all the load and stress of such an occasion is now lifted off my shoulders.
Quote: You've got a contradiction on your hands or you mean(even by accident) that God runs the place as a communist leader. Care to fix this?
How so? So if the creator of the universe feels He can tell us what to do, then all men have the right to play god? I rather trust in the mercy of God than in the mercy and judgment of a man any day.
Let's review the kid suspension one more time. It's as plain as this. If the kid was warned a couple of times not to bring the toy to school, and he did anyway then sure he ought to get into trouble. But even a kid must realize that the spirit of the rule to not bring toy guns to school is so they don't get confused with real guns. Not a danger if the toy is miniature.
If I didn't know any better I'd think you all just like to argue. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 24 Feb 2010 22:38
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Quote: I really don't trust a camera to catch the truth in terms of whether or not I deserve a ticket.
If the light was red when you went through it, you're almost certainly guilty. If you get that ticket in the mail, you get to go to court and explain yourself.
Quote: I know you pak have said in the past you didn't like cameras even when they were used to catch rapes.
I don't remember saying this at all, especially the rape rider. Do you recall what the conversation or thread was that included this? I don't like how much surveilance we have as a society in general, but catching a rape and the guilty party as evidence sound like a good reason to have them around unfortunately.
Quote: Besides just because the law says if someone hits me from behind it's their fault doesn't mean all the load and stress of such an occasion is now lifted off my shoulders.
No, it doesn't. If you're doing 60 in a 35, you shouldn't just jam on your brakes and endanger the idiot who's riding your bumper the entire way, especially for something so insignificant as a red light or a stop sign or some fool who chose the wrong moment to be in that crosswalk. Seriously, there's that whole part of the written test when you get your license about a safe following distance-this is why. It's their job, not yours, except in extreme cases.
Quote: How so?
You say that people are more important than rules(no problem there), and if rules become more important than people, then the people become communists. Then you bring up your ultimate lawgiver, whose rules are clearly more important than the people he's given them to. God now equals communist leader. That's how.
Quote: I rather trust in the mercy of God than in the mercy and judgment of a man any day.
So now, whether or not a rule should be adhered to or how strongly one should consider following it depends either on the punishment doled out or who is doling it out? Clear this up for me. If you have little enough respect for someone(s) with authority or their rules or the penalty that accompanies breaking those rules you can just ignore their authority altogether?
Quote: If the kid was warned a couple of times not to bring the toy to school, and he did anyway then sure he ought to get into trouble.
I'll meet you partway on this one. There's a rule in play already that the kids and parents should be clearly aware of. The first time the kid tries to bend the rules or outright break them, the kid gets a warning and the toy gets confiscated until the end of the day. The second time, he pays the price for it.
Quote: But even a kid must realize that the spirit of the rule to not bring toy guns to school is so they don't get confused with real guns.
What kids do you know that consider what the 'spirit of a rule' is for any other reason than to get away with something and not get punished for it? It's not for kids to determine themselves why rules are in place or how to bypass them(though they certainly will), or to what extent they should be followed.
On a seperate note, are you sure that's all the rule is about? Maybe it's a bit more actually.
Quote: If I didn't know any better I'd think you all just like to argue.
This coming from the guy who put up the political forum we argue on in the first place? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 25 Feb 2010 16:34
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Quote: If the light was red when you went through it, you're almost certainly guilty. If you get that ticket in the mail, you get to go to court and explain yourself.
Well what if it turned red when your car was almost under it. Sometimes it seems like those yellow lights go pretty fast. I mean really you can't trust this set up when money is involved. It ain't about keeping the streets safe. It's about ripping money off of people. I guarantee you there some crooked setups. Heck, here where I live as an example. It wasn't cameras, but the judge got de-throned because he was in cahoots with this driving school teacher. He'd send folks to class and the teacher would then share the dough. Heck, another judge that didn't get caught tried the same crap on me. I took the ticket for not having a correct address on my license. I think it was like 30 35 bucks maybe less, but the judge wanted me to take the class that cost 80 bucks. A class for having the wrong address on my license. (I had just moved a year before)
Quote: I don't remember saying this at all
I don't remember the post, but almost positive it was you. We were arguing about cameras and you were on the other side of the argument saying there was never a good enough reason to have cameras set up.
And about getting hit in the back. I really like my car. It's not a Ferrari or worth thousands of dollars but it's in great shape for 83 Firebird and I'd go into depression if some idiot hit my back.
Don't try to judge God. That's ridiculous. Most people recognize the problem comes not when God acts like God, but when men try to act like they are God.
Quote: the kid gets a warning and the toy gets confiscated until the end of the day. The second time, he pays the price for it.
That would be fine, but that's not what they did. I think most people would give a warning and even though you like to argue with me you apparently agree as well.
I'm assuming the toy gun rule is so they don't cause panic in the school by having some security guard think the kid has a gun. Can't see any other reason. Perhaps they should just say no toys at all if there was another reason. And even then a warning or taking the toy away till the end of the day would be sufficient.
Quote: This coming from the guy who put up the political forum we argue on in the first place?
lol, I like to discuss not argue. Discuss. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 25 Feb 2010 23:36
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Quote: Well what if it turned red when your car was almost under it.
It's likely that you chose to ignore the amber warning and 'went for it'. Especially if you know they have a tendency to go quick.
Quote: It ain't about keeping the streets safe. It's about ripping money off of people.
Actually, it makes more sense that it is specifically for safety in this case. The light is there to regulate traffic and ideally to prevent accidents. As for ripping people off, if you don't run the red light, you can't get a ticket for running a red light. They have many other ways to get money out of you than this particular infraction. Stop eating lights; there's no excuse.
Quote: you were on the other side of the argument saying there was never a good enough reason to have cameras set up.
Again, I don't think that was me. Where I stand on cameras is this: I'm all for people having cameras on their own property to defend themselves and their property. I am against being under constant surveillance by the government(or others) whether that's by cameras at stop lights and street corners or tapping my phones and reading my communications without cause or a warrant or my knowledge for that matter. Personal protection good; government(or others) being intrusive bad.
Quote: I really like my car.
Does not take away anyone's responsibility for following at a safe distance or give you an excuse to bypass traffic signals. If it makes you that nervous you should either leave this car at home or pull over and let others pass every time someone is behind you or do the unthinkable and stay near the posted speed.
Quote: Don't try to judge God. That's ridiculous.
That is rediculous. How'd you get me judging God out of my explanation? I judged your notions, not the deity.(and you still can't see the problem?)
Quote: That would be fine, but that's not what they did.
I'm not 100% sure. The kid may be a disciplinary case and we weren't told as much, just to protect the sensational level of the story.
Quote: you apparently agree as well
What's funny here, is that most people agree on a great number of things, especially something as broad and appealing as fairness. There aren't many who would disagree with fairness.
On the other hand, you have a longstanding running theme of trying to massage the rules when it suits you which I absolutely do not agree with and depending on the particular rules being massaged, you may or may not have much agreement from anyone else either.
Quote: I'm assuming the toy gun rule is so they don't cause panic in the school by having some security guard think the kid has a gun.
I don't think it's about guards being quite that stupid about a two inch gun. Ever heard of the Columbine incident(massacre)? How about the shooting at Virginia Tech not too long ago?
Quote: Perhaps they should just say no toys at all if there was another reason.
You're glancing over the fact that it's a toy gun. The issue is it being a gun, not just a toy. Although, outside of show and tell, kids probably shouldn't be bringing toys to school. I'm not advocating prohibition of toys or toy guns. I'm addressing that spirit of the law you brought up earlier. It's not for kids to figure out and it's not for adults to ignore.
Quote: I like to discuss not argue.
You can call it filibustering or breaking out a soapbox; the name given doesn't change the activity. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 26 Feb 2010 21:51
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Quote: I am against being under constant surveillance by the government(or others) whether that's by cameras at stop lights
Then what the heck are we arguing about.
Quote: On the other hand, you have a longstanding running theme of trying to massage the rules when it suits you
I'm just old fashioned compared to your way of thinking. My perspective doesn't include rethinking the common ordinary settled common sense avenues of thought that have been in place for generations.
The toy gun was way too small to be seen as a real gun. Therefore it shouldn't have caused any problems.
On the next episode Tim and Pak argue over the invention of the light bulb. Good or bad you decide, but whatever side Tim is on Pak is sure to disagree.
We need our own TV show. We really do. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 27 Feb 2010 01:25
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Quote: My perspective doesn't include rethinking the common ordinary settled common sense avenues of thought that have been in place for generations.
Feel free to make a list of those 'avenues' and we can go over them to see which have actually been around for generations and then have a field day seeing which are actually common or right for that matter.
Quote: The toy gun was way too small to be seen as a real gun. Therefore it shouldn't have caused any problems.
That would be true if the only problem would have been someone confusing it with a real gun. This is obviously not the case since it became a news story and all.
Quote: Tim and Pak argue over the invention of the light bulb.
You start.
Quote: We need our own TV show. We really do.
I think we need more participants right in this venue actually. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
