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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 16:54 |
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It drives me nuts to be driven out of a bar to smoke, because people drinking alcohol and eating fried appetizers are concerned for their health inside.
I think that's really funny.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 17:28 |
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Nah, you can go outside. If i want to eat fried jalapenos and drink beer, that's on me. But if you smoke and I have to inhale your carcinogenic exhale, that's on you. And you can go outside. I don't smoke cigs, and I don't want to inhale your smoke. I'm not forcing you to eat my fried jalapenos, or more appropriately, the waste I generate from them.
Not saving you from yourself, saving me from you.
Sure, but you could always choose to go to a bar where people don't smoke. Or if the owner wants to tell all the smokers to put them out so they don't bother you- we'd be obliged to do so. Its his place, not yours, mine or DC Council's.
Furthermore, unless a nonsmoker is in a bar everyday, I doubt that smoke is going to amount to much. I think if a nonsmoker were to get cancer by being in a bar everyday, it would be in the liver before the lungs. (Unless you're a bartender, in which case the smoke is the least of your daily troubles.)
When we end up reforming places of business to reflect the way a few people like them to be- we're headed down the wrong path. I'm not calling it socialism, I'm just calling it misguided.
Like I said, I often make the choice to go to bars where smoking is allowed. I've worked in plenty of restaurants over the years, and most of them had a generous nonsmoking section for just this reason. You expressed that you think VA bars stink- thats your opinion and thats okay- just don't try to change the rules for those who have been happily stinking them up for years (as was recently attempted by the VA Senator from my hometown of Roanoke). Instead, you can always open up your own place and declare it a non smoking bar. You could ask the owner of your favorite bar to make the decision for himself. To me, that seems a lot more fair.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 17:38 |
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Captain America
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Furthermore, unless a nonsmoker is in a bar everyday, I doubt that smoke is going to amount to much. I think if a nonsmoker were to get cancer by being in a bar everyday, it would be in the liver before the lungs. (Unless you're a bartender, in which case the smoke is the least of your daily troubles.)
But if someone wants to drink, that's their biz. If smoking didn't come with a health risk for other people, there'd be nothing to debate about.
Businesses are regulated on scores of health and safety concerns. Secondhand smoke is dangerous to people around the smoker, so why should that be treated differently?
I was playing about Va. bars, btw.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 18:11 |
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I understand Cap- no hard feelings.
But here's what I'm thinking-
Quote:
If smoking didn't come with a health risk for other people, there'd be nothing to debate about.
There's risk everywhere in life. We don't stop hunters from hunting because they might shoot a camper. We don't stop everyone from driving because they might hit a guy on bike. I have yet to hear of someone who died from second hand smoke, but if I did and that person had been a frequent bar patron- I'd think "man, thats a shame, but they shouldn't have kept going to that bar."
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Businesses are regulated on scores of health and safety concerns. Secondhand smoke is dangerous to people around the smoker, so why should that be treated differently? Sure, but to narrow the scope, most of the ones involving restaurants involve not poisoning the customer by surprise. It is ones right to expect to eat a hamburger made of cow and not rat. It is a right to know there won't be broken glass in the ice bin. Because these things are not enjoyable- there isn't really a market for ratburgers or glass smoothies. But some people like cigarettes, and many bars choose to let people smoke there. That is between the owner and the patrons.
People know what they're getting into when they walk into a bar. They even know what they're getting into when they buy a pack of cigarettes, because it says so on the box. I only smoke every now and again and I'm normally unconcerned if others want to do so all the time. I don't because its bad for you- same way I avoid a Krispy Kreme addiction, but enjoy one occasionally. I can't be held responsible if that is all some people feed their kids.
I'm not pushing for the right to smoke on a train, or a library or in court, just in the privately owned places where the owner has decided thats how he wants his place to be.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 18:30 |
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Captain America
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The argument you're making says that if you go to bars, you deserve to suffer health risks that have nothing to do with what you are putting into your body.
There are inherent risks associated with the consumption of alcohol. But secondhand smoke doesn't have top be one. And it shouldn't.
Again, I don't care about your smoking outside, in the privacy of your home, etc. But I'll never be convinced smokers have a right to expose nonsmokers to it.
Some stats on secondhand smoke:
http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35422
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 21:24 |
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The argument you're making says that if you go to bars, you deserve to suffer health risks that have nothing to do with what you are putting into your body.
There can't be that many people that go to a bar and don't smoke on top of drinking.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 21:32 |
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Captain America
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There can't be that many people that go to a bar and don't smoke on top of drinking.
Most of the folks I know don't smoke and like to go to bars.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 21:47 |
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Where do you live at? This world you abide in is like nothing I've ever seen. I guess the world really is different up north. I suppose that's where you are from seeing as how you sound like a dang Yankee!
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 21:51 |
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Captain America
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Actually, I was born in southeastern Va., and now live in northern Va. I know your history is poor, and I imagine your geography ain't all that hot, but that's the south, my friend.
Remember, smoking rates have dropped over the years. It's a small minority who smoke. Most of my friends don't do it.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 21:55 |
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and now live in northern Va See northern Virginy. I knew you was a dad blamed yankee!
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 21:57 |
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Captain America
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Yeah, I live near where Robert E. Lee grew up. That's Yankeeland, for sure.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 21:58 |
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If he's listening to you, I'm sure he's rolling in his grave by now.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 22:12 |
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Captain America
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He's probably upset I try to learn ya up right, when you are so obviously unteachable.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 22:13 |
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Right, you teach me what? How to be a sensitive sissy, and still yap insults with the bet of them.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 22:15 |
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Captain America
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you got the last part right. maybe there's hope for you yet.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 22:19 |
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Yeah, but I'll never learn to be liberally sensitive.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 22:20 |
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Captain America
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nah, your conservative thin skin serves you just fine.
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| Posted: 28 Sep 2007 22:36 |
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__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 29 Sep 2007 00:41 |
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The argument you're making says that if you go to bars, you deserve to suffer health risks that have nothing to do with what you are putting into your body.
No, that a conlcusion you're making about my argument using unnessecarily impasioned words. I'm not saying anyone "deserves" anything. I'm just saying people can make up their own minds.
The argument I'm making is that you know what you're getting into when you go into a bar where smoking is permitted.
That's just a choice you make if thats how the owner has set things up. Why not let the owner decide?
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There are inherent risks associated with the consumption of alcohol. But secondhand smoke doesn't have top be one. And it shouldn't.
With respect Cap, whether it should or shouldn't is a matter of opinion best left to individual choice. It is the choice of the bar owner whether to permit smoking, the individual's choice as to whether they frequent that bar, and the choice of the patrons if they can't come to some sort of reasonable agreement regarding where the smoke goes. There just isn't any need to have the government picking a side on this.
Regarding the link you provided, I found a couple things that DO bother me about second hand smoke. I'm not totally one sided on this matter.
Of course, we also have to figure that the American Lung association isn't going to extol the merits of smoking either and they might not consider the rights of business owners in their mission. The data looks a little extreme to me, but who knows? Nobody is without bias, not you, me or them.
And data doesn't change the fact that bar owners can decide to make their places of business non smoking if so they choose.
That being said:
For people that work in bars- their "choice" to work there is debatable. Nothing made me "want" to work for a restaurant in college- it just paid the bills better than anything else. Of course, most restaurants include a smoking and non smoking section, and the smoke was only a problem for me (I guess, it didn't really keep me up at night) after I was promoted to bartender.
I could have turned that down and continued to work in non-smoking, but of course I didn't. But that was the trade of danger and pressure for more money and unfortunately, people are pushed into that choice all the time.
You and I live in a giant target for a terror attack and both moved here from places where it was safer and at least a little easier to get where you're going. We make that call though, because this is where we want to live and work.
Additionally, it is very sad that people continue to smoke around their children. I don't condone their right to do that, though I can hardly make a rule against it effectively. The kids have to live there- so they don't have a choice. That is very unfortunate, and a far greater evil than people smoking up a bar.
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| Posted: 29 Sep 2007 01:33 |
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In NJ and NY it is not the bar owner's choice or any business owner's choice anymore. No smoking in any type of business, except for a very small handful that got grandfathered.
Here's a link for the story:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181719,00.html
(yes, it's Fox, but they came up first on my search  )
In NJ, it was April 14th, 2006. I remember that because I had to stop going to my favorite diner that day.
Now that I've quit em, not an issue anymore.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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