But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 26 Oct 2009 16:13
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Despite what your narrator says, our liberties are God given.
The 1776 United States Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson, famously asserts:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men."
So our government was brought together to protect the rights that were endowed upon us by our Creator.
Sounds pretty self evident to me. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 26 Oct 2009 20:09
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Not that I necessarily wanted to debate religion again, but- the Creator in question there is slightly different- Jefferson wasn't a Christian, he was a deist. Look it up. Any reference he made to a creator was the same as Spinoza or Einstein or any of a large host of others; the same as when they say Nature's God or just nature all by itself. (When was the last time you referred to God as 'Nature's God'? Right. Never. )
Aside from that, those rights and our 'liberties' as mentioned in the discussion are two seperate items actually- the liberties he is speaking of are the Bill of Rights, if not the entire Constitution. Rights as mentioned there are things considered automatically deserved by your birth, as opposed to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, etc. A liberty isn't a right except by the vaguest stretch of the language.
I could go on about proving there is a God and then proving which one and then proving that they did anything at all, but that would probably just piss you off and I don't feel like having the 3 Stooges or Reagan thrown in my general direction yet again like some retaliatory hand grenades.
Was there anything else in the video you took issue with or do you actually agree with what he's saying about those two characters(or did you just not watch the rest)? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 27 Oct 2009 18:12
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I didn't feel like arguing about the whole thing.
I think since Jefferson was writing for everyone, I think if he wanted God to mean nature he would have said nature. Being an intelligent man, I think he knew if he said God, everybody would take that to mean God.
To say we are just born with certain rights doesn't really give us a firm foundation from which to base our rights on. To say they were granted to us by God does. The belief in God gives us a basis for all of our moral beliefs. To take an absolute moral authority like God out of the equation leaves us with no absolute moral authority.
All we are left with is opinion at that point. I don't think Jefferson wanted to say it's my opinion we are born with rights. I think he wanted to affirm those rights in the most sold concrete and uncompromising way he knew how. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 27 Oct 2009 21:22
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Quote: I think if he wanted God to mean nature he would have said nature.
He meant what he meant, not what people would prefer he meant, and that's you or me or anyone else. He said Creator to cover his bases- he never said God to appease one group over another. He never said or meant 'God' at all, not specifically. Your God is part of the mix but yours does not get sole exclusive rights to when he was speaking of a 'Creator'.
Quote: To say we are just born with certain rights...
Means you don't understand somehow that just by a person being alive means they are deserving of the same treatment as every other human being, at least as much as in the government's eyes. If someone is not a part of your religious view, they're somehow subhuman and don't deserve the same treatment? Do I have this correct?
Quote: The belief in God gives us a basis for all of our moral beliefs.
That would explain why I don't steal, rape or murder, just for a short list? Try again. I have a conscience whether you care to acknowledge it or not and I'm willing to bet you can think of a few 'holy men' who just don't seem to be acquainted with having one. Don't make me dig up that morality thread again. You remember the one where you were afraid to acknowledge my definition of morality? Right.
Quote: I think he wanted to affirm those rights in the most sold concrete and uncompromising way he knew how.
Right. In the light of a person's rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness he did just that by not signifying one religion as authority over the individual or as better than any other- 'Creator' covered all the bases for what he wanted to say.
Quote: I don't think Jefferson wanted to say it's my opinion we are born with rights.
Right again. He wanted everyone recognized as equals simply as a human right- not where one group or another is entitled over others. Not bad for a slave owner. The rest of what you're saying is based on personal preferences on your part and not what is written in content or by intent. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 28 Oct 2009 19:03
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Quote: He meant what he meant, not what people would prefer he meant, and that's you or me or anyone else.
Or maybe he meant what he said and not what you think he meant.
Quote: If someone is not a part of your religious view, they're somehow subhuman and don't deserve the same treatment?
I'm kind of confused as to how you arrive at that idea. If you are born with inalienable rights given to you by God, then you have those rights from the start not after your religious belief is determined.
Quote: That would explain why I don't steal, rape or murder, just for a short list?
You can be a nice guy by nature, but to argue why you shouldn't do those things you need something to point out to prove why those things are immoral. You have to have a firm foundation for morality because if you say it's just because society says so then morality can change all the time. Do you want to base right and wrong on a political poll, or what is actually right and wrong? You just can't go on society, or opinion to determine right and wrong. And to further explain your good behavior God does give us all a conscience which is something that can be strengthened or weakened just like a muscle.
One thing you don't seem to understand about the founders is that they didn't want to push one denomination above another one, but they also didn't want to push God out of the government like these ACLU types today.
Quote: The rest of what you're saying is based on personal preferences on your part and not what is written in content or by intent.
I think you see evidence from the perspective you sit at. Like you seem to believe everybody that wrote the constitution were atheists or almost atheists. I tend to go on what they actually said and what history teaches us people believed back in those days. If they were all so fired against God, He sure found his way into American life awfully well. Even today I can't drive a block without seeing a church. My money says, "In God we trust" despite the ACLU. The pledge still says, "One nation under God" despite the ACLU. I know they might win one day, but they'll always have to reckon with the fact that God was once important to the founding of this great nation. The aftermath of what is to come when God is completely gone from America is yet to be seen. As if school shootings, abortions, murder, and immorality of every persuasion wasn't enough. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 29 Oct 2009 00:17
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Quote: Or maybe he meant what he said and not what you think he meant.
You tried to hijack the word creator, not me. I can read what he said just fine.
Quote: If you are born with inalienable rights given to you by God
If is a good word. It is not proven that this particular god even exists, that it is the only one, that it cares about human affairs, that it is capable to act upon those concerns or anything else which gets us finally around to that god doing anything. Those are alot of if's and that has zero to do with what Jefferson wrote or the two idiots from Way of the Master.
Quote: You have to have a firm foundation for morality
It's supposed to be in our DNA, or a result of us being the particular type of pack animal that we are(call that a social condition). It's not in a book- ANY book. Especially not 'holy' books. It's ok though- science is working on it. All this is again, way off the path. Creator is still not sole property of Christians and Way of the master still thieves.
Quote: I think you see evidence from the perspective you sit at.
Testimony doesn't automatically get a pass as evidence. Evidence is based on observations we can all share, not perspectives or individual opinion or personal agendas or trying to worm your way out of one discussion by starting another. If you didn't want to discuss the video or it's actual contents, you didn't need to comment at all. Instead we've gone far astray into this slap fight over your beliefs and preferences.
Quote: I tend to go on what they actually said
Whatever you supposedly 'tend' to do, you haven't done that here. I'll simplify the argument. If he meant God, he would have said God. Creator is still not just for Christians and WotM are still frauds.
Quote: you seem to believe everybody that wrote the constitution were atheists or almost atheists
Nope. You made that up like a retaliation for having your feelings hurt. Aren't you guys prohibited from bering false witness?
Quote: what history teaches us people believed back in those days
What history books or classes are these that teach what people believe(d) instead of the history itself exactly? You could be meaning Howard Zihn but I think you're just talking trash at this point.
Quote: He sure found his way into American life awfully well
Nothing to do with Jefferson writing Creator in the preamble or WotM being thieves.
Quote: Even today I can't drive a block without seeing a church.
You'd think if the bible was absolute and God was actually all-powerful they'd all be the same religion and denomination. Not the case is it? Also has nothing to do with Creator being solely Christian and WotM still charlatans.
Quote: My money says, "In God we trust" despite the ACLU. The pledge still says, "One nation under God" despite the ACLU
Both things that were not originally written on either item. I can't understand why their presence is necessary on either but they don't really bother me either. Neither has anything to do with Creator or WotM.
Quote: I know they might win one day, but they'll always have to reckon with the fact that God was once important to the founding of this great nation. The aftermath of what is to come when God is completely gone from America is yet to be seen. As if school shootings, abortions, murder, and immorality of every persuasion wasn't enough.
I'm gonna be really blunt here, because I had to sit through all that. Desperate whining on your part which has more to do with your viewing habits than any actual argument or discussion we were having. Not that I have to repeat this but I think I should to get the message across. None of that has anything to do with Creator or WotM.
Back to basics. Prove that Creator is sole property of Christians when Jeferson wrote it in the preamble or that issue is pretty much done. Since you haven't been able to defend WotM at all, I'm gonna guess that this is already done. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 02 Nov 2009 18:28
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Quote: It's supposed to be in our DNA, or a result of us being the particular type of pack animal that we are(call that a social condition).
So evolution has a conscience?
Quote: Prove that Creator is sole property of Christians
Your perspective is wrong. The creator created you as much as me. I'm just trying to figure out what he wants from me by reading his book.
Don't read into my words any anger or whining. If there is any there it's because I'm between meals or need another caffeine fix. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 02 Nov 2009 21:45
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Quote: So evolution has a conscience?
It's not set in stone just yet but there are reasons to believe that our conscience is a product of evolution.
Quote: Your perspective is wrong.
My perspective is fine. The word is creator, used by Jefferson in the preamble to the constitution. Keeping in mind not only the first amendment, but the fact that Jefferson was a deist and prove your point of him using creator solely to describe the Christian god. Check your own perspective and answer that point instead of insisting on something else that you can't prove either, namely the existence of that god in particular. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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