Quote: Putting the myth that America was "founded as a Christian nation" to rest.
It's a little early for a July 4th upload but enjoy.
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 28 Apr 2009 14:58
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Phooey, America is a Christian nation. Sorry, but I'm short on time or I'd make a better argument. Your such a modernistic thinker. I'd rather be old fashioned and right. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 28 Apr 2009 20:22
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1 America is not a 'Christian nation', regardless of your desire to the contrary.
2 If you had any sort of better argument, why haven't you made it before now? (I'm guessing you don't have any such better argument)
3 You make the mistake of creating a false dichotomy where somehow modern is automatically false.
4 Your condition is called chronophobia. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 29 Apr 2009 17:16 Last Edited By: Tim
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You know I've posted a million things contrary to your statement, and will probably continue to post more in the future till the Lord comes back, but right now my brain needs a rest. Found a place to post links for the site. Mixx.com. Got one in there so far. Have to find posts that are more like articles though. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 29 Apr 2009 23:13
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Quote: You know I've posted a million things contrary to your statement
Personal objections don't counter facts or reason. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 30 Apr 2009 16:02
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I meant a million historical objections. Boy got to watch you all the time. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 30 Apr 2009 18:37
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List the million when you have the time. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 30 Apr 2009 20:58
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Ok it wasn't a million things that was an exaggeration. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 30 Apr 2009 23:30
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Ok, list the dozen facts when you have the time. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 01 May 2009 14:34
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In God We Trust. I read that somewhere. Now where did I see that? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 01 May 2009 14:35
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One nation under God. I heard that somewhere before too. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 01 May 2009 20:25
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The words 'under God' weren't added to the pledge of allegience until 1954, under the near Nazi level ideology of McCarthyism.
'In God we trust' showed up on coins a year later for similar reasons, paper money two years after that. It replaced 'E Pluribus Unum' (Of many, one) as the national motto in '56.
These two examples are what happens when scare tactics override common sense and our government ignores the first amendment, not the proof of a 'Christian nation' as you're suggesting. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 01 May 2009 23:27
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What it does say is that in the past, which by definition was closer to our founding fathers in time than we are, our society had no problem adding "In God We Trust, or One Nation Under God.
You see if you go back to the past you will see supreme court rulings, laws, and all kinds of things that point to America as a Christian nation. It isn't till you get here where we are in the last few decades that there is this accelerated pace to get away from all things Christian and claim that's how we started. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 02 May 2009 13:13
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They weren't added by our society, for our society or with their opinion taken into account on the matter. It was a response to fearmongering via 'the red scare' which was nonsense all by itself.
The closer than us in time thing is silly too- yesterday was closer to them than we are today-so what?
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As for all the rulings and laws and whatever that supposedly point toward America as a Christian nation-start listing them.
I'll start with the first amendment and back that with the Treaty of Tripoli. Then you show me what you have.
Quote: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
A supposedly Christian nation would at least reference Mosaic law, wouldn't it? It would go out of it's way to defend and uphold Christianity as well, but again it doesn't. The best that Christianity gets here, is that people are allowed to practice it unhampered by the law-in eact equal measure to every other grouping considered a legitimate religion.
Quote: Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.
Let's see part of what Adams was so proud of:
Quote: Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
That's pretty clear right there. I can also just make a transcript of the things in the vid if you like, but in the meantime, go ahead and list some examples of all the rulings and laws and whatever that supposedly point to America as a 'Christian nation'. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 04 May 2009 18:37
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In a 1774 report to King George, the Governor of Boston noted: "If you ask an American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ." The pre-war Colonial Committees of Correspondence soon made this the American motto: "No King but King Jesus." And this sentiment was carried over into the 1783 peace treaty with Great Britain ending that war, which begins "In the name of the most Holy and Undivided Trinity... ."
In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.
It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the hearts of the most serene and most potent Prince George the Third, by the grace of God, king of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, arch- treasurer and prince elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc., and of the United States of America, to forget all past misunderstandings and differences that have unhappily interrupted the good correspondence and friendship which they mutually wish to restore, and to establish such a beneficial and satisfactory intercourse , between the two countries upon the ground of reciprocal advantages and mutual convenience as may promote and secure to both perpetual peace and harmony; and having for this desirable end already laid the foundation of peace and reconciliation by the Provisional Articles signed at Paris on the 30th of November 1782, by the commissioners empowered on each part, which articles were agreed to be inserted in and constitute the Treaty of Peace proposed to be concluded between the Crown of Great Britain and the said United States,
D. HARTLEY (SEAL)
JOHN ADAMS (SEAL)
B. FRANKLIN (SEAL)
JOHN JAY (SEAL)
Looks like John Adams signed off that document too. He didn't have any problem signing a treaty in the name of God (the Trinity).
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Our sixth President, John Quincy Adams said "From the day of the Declaration...they [the American people] were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct"
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John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court said: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their ruler, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
A law he signed into existence eventually saw the emancipation of all New York slaves before his death.
John Jay was appointed by George Washington. Jay was Anglican, a denomination renamed the Protestant Episcopal Church in America
In a letter addressed to Pennsylvania House of Representatives member John Murray, dated October 12, 1816, Jay wrote, "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest, of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
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Justice Joseph Story, who was appointed to the US Supreme Court by President Madison, said in an 1829 speech at Harvard: "There never has been a period of history, in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundation." Story wrote several respected treatises or Commentaries on Constitutional Law, in which are found the following: "Probably, at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, and of the [First] Amendment...the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the State so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience and the freedom of religious worship. Any attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation."
"The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance, much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government".
Justice Story wrote for a unanimous Supreme Court in 1844 ( Vidal v Girard's Executors): "It is also said, and truly that the Christian religion is a part of the common law... ."
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I could keep looking but I'll let you chew on that for a while. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 04 May 2009 20:42
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You could start with where you pasted this from actually.
Secondly, someone's opinion doesn't equal legislature or override the Constitution- I'm hard pressed to see it counting as any sort of 'foundation' for the nation.
Third, mentioning a god or God does not equate America with a Christian nation, especially when you don't know which god they might be referring to(I know you assume they're speaking of yours, but this might not actually be the case, like when they speak of Nature's God in other places).
Quote: Looks like John Adams signed off that document too.
and this one does not counter what was stated in the other treaty. Not even close.
Quote: Our sixth President, John Quincy Adams said...
Source of full quote this was mined from?(and why this should matter as to America being a supposed 'Christian nation').
Quote: John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court said...
A chief justice that ignores not only the first amendment but article six of the Constitution should be listened to why?
Here's article six by the way:
Quote: All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
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For Justice Story, see my above comment about someone's opinion. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 04 May 2009 20:44
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By the way, where are the Supreme Court rulings and laws you were speaking about?
A Justice sharing his opinion isn't a ruling or a law. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 05 May 2009 20:24 Last Edited By: Tim
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Let's not beat around the bush. Just how far do you want to push God out of society anyway? I think you are actually afraid some kid might turn to God if he hears something religious in school by accident or something. Heaven forbid, a kid love God over drugs, sex, and booze.
Just like to know how far you would take this wall between government and God. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 05 May 2009 21:05
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The argument was supposed to be whether this is a 'Christian nation' or not. I posted the vid that says no, we waren't. You say we are. I challenged you to back that up. You posted (pasted) a handful of unsatisfatory things toward backing your claim, which I called you on. So instead of responding to my call, instead of further evidence toward your claim, instead of the >actual< "supreme court rulings, laws, and all kinds of things that point to America as a Christian nation", you make a special plea about how I'm trying to 'drive God away' mixed with another bit of pleading for the poor children who might 'lose out' if they don't fall under the spell of propaganda as well.
Maybe the fault is mine for not checking my own premises. Let's take this from the base. Tell me in your own words what a 'Christian nation' is, and we can decide from there if that is what we are or not. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 06 May 2009 18:38 Last Edited By: Tim
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A Christian nation is a nation that is founded on the principles of the Word of God as this nation was. Our Christian heritage is the very reason that other religions are welcomed to worship as they see fit in America. However, our customs and laws are originally built around Christian values, and we should not have to readjust all of our laws and heritage and deny the very foundations of our country that created this atmosphere of prosperity and freedom we now enjoy.
You have to know if you've spent any time researching our Christian heritage in anything other than atheistic commentaries you'd realize that this nation has Christianity weaved through it's entire history. You know as well as I do of course that any and all examples I put forth will only meet with the usual disdain from you to the point I'm not 100 percent sure it's even worth the effort. Don't take this as anger or whatever, it's just simply the fact that I really believe you are the type of person that makes up their mind about something and then seeks out the information to back up their view point. I'm sure we are all guilty of that to some degree, but it can be really tedious trying to present evidence to someone that will not even let information in that is contrary to their world veiw. Maybe you feel the same way about me and my stubborn views, but still. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 06 May 2009 18:49
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One thing that bothers me I guess, is that I know that there is always another side to these claims of yours. I wonder if you already know what that argument might be and wouldn't mind posting that. It's not we are in a contest or anything right. The point is to pass along information right. I refer to the treaty of Tripoli. I'm sure there is more to that than what you've posted. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 06 May 2009 22:27
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This is not a competition and it never should have felt like one, so you have my apology if it did at any point if I was the actual cause of that feeling.
That aside, I feel it's an important enough topic to continue on with, until we either reach some sort of consensus or it runs it's course.
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In response:
Quote: A Christian nation is a nation that is founded on the principles of the Word of God as this nation was.
Supposedly your God formed the whole universe with his word along with everything originally in it. It's kind of silly to break off this country by itself and designate it the only one that's his out of all of them isn't it? Kind of like putting your great great grandfather at the kiddies table during Thanksgiving dinner? The idea of calling this one nation his sounds quite silly to me, along the same lines as 'God bless America' which so many assume is patriotic but sounds demeaning really, if not just egotistical.
On a seperate note there, can you list these principles that we are supposed to be founded on, that are exclusively Christian in your estimation?
Quote: Our Christian heritage is the very reason that other religions are welcomed to worship as they see fit in America.
That makes no sense when you take into account how your ten commandments say to worship no other gods before yours-which is certainly not a basis for tolerance of other religions. Now I do see your point here of how some were persecuted and others were forced basically at the business end of a gun to worship something they didn't believe in-these were not solely and exclusively Christians that dealt with this treatment though, thus not a solely Christian heritage in that aspect.
Quote: However, our customs and laws are originally built around Christian values,
See, that pesty first amendment says no, our laws are not based on any religious doctrine whatsoever. Where it says that 'Congress shall make no law concerning an establishment of religion' means exactly what it says- we don't make laws that take any one particular faith into consideration over another.
If you're referring to the original colonies >before< we made a nation of this place with our Declaration of Independence, and Constitution or all of the bloodshed that came with them, then yes, we came here, slaughtered and chased off the original inhabitants stealing all that they owned including their heritage in the name of God and country and King. There's a bit of a large blockade in between what we came here and did and the actual beginning of our country which you don't seem to be taking into account. The colonies themselves were created in the interests of the English King and his brood, not as a beginning of an independant country. It was the events back home along with the events in the colonies, not to mention the perceptions of other grievances that cause the Founders to claim their own country from the grip of that tyrant. Now, you can call that particular stimulus on incentive to be free from a tyrant the foundation of this nation, but it's a bit dishonest and/or shortsighted, in light of one or two issues only being a part of the whole, instead of the full focus of that new nation.
Quote: we should not have to readjust all of our laws and heritage and deny the very foundations of our country that created this atmosphere of prosperity and freedom we now enjoy.
Smells like Fox news right there.
In all seriousness though, I can see how if you think that this nation was founded on Christianity to try and deny that is basically traitorous. Having said that, make sure what you know of said foundation actually meets with reality in not only terminology but logic and reason.
Quote: researching our Christian heritage in anything other than atheistic commentaries you'd realize that this nation has Christianity weaved through it's entire history.
would result in the equal but opposite bias you assume those other commentaries to possess. If possible I'd rather deal in fact than ideological salesmanship, from any particular salesman or group.
I really want to take issue with that 'atheistic commentary' idea you have there but this may just push the topic over the brink at this point. I'll leave this be for now, but would like to come back to it.
Quote: I really believe you are the type of person that makes up their mind about something and then seeks out the information to back up their view point.
Perhaps every bit as much as you have or not at all. Be honest and use that judgment on yourself.
Quote: I refer to the treaty of Tripoli. I'm sure there is more to that than what you've posted.
I'm fairly certain you didn't intend to call me duplicitous in such an underhanded manner. The Treaty of Tripoli is pretty straightforward-at the very least, with what I was pointing out about it. That would be the statement 'As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion' which the President himself ratified. You could argue that this was merely a concession for the Islamic enemy we made that treaty with and I would have to point out that the wording is too precisely done and could have been done differently or simply better had we actually been founded on Christianity or just wished the enemy to believe otherwise. That statement, in that treaty, is a condemnation to the idea of what you say is a 'Christian nation'. This also handily defeats that little game of 'being closer to the founders than we are' you tried with 'under God' and 'In God we trust'- Adams was a founder and he signed off on that statement. mentioning God or Christianity doesn't clean that off the slate either.
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As for the passing along of information, I'm again requesting the list of principles that we are founded on that you believe to be the sole property of Christendom, along with the Supreme Court rulings and laws you made mention of previously. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 07 May 2009 18:16
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It was by our Christian principles that our founding fathers realized we shouldn't create laws to force people to belong to certain churches. See you can't seem to understand that there have been and still are countries where if you were to come out and say you believe in Jesus for instance you might go to jail. You want go to jail for saying you are an atheists, muslim, or whatever in America. But that doesn't mean that God was meant to be stricken from the record.
and backing up a little you said I didn't give any court case rulings.
Justice Story wrote for a unanimous Supreme Court in 1844 ( Vidal v Girard's Executors): "It is also said, and truly that the Christian religion is a part of the common law... ."
That one wasn't a speech but part of an actual court opinion.
And why would Our sixth President, John Quincy Adams say "From the day of the Declaration...they [the American people] were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct"
if Christianity had no bearing on the frame work of our country.
Samuel Adams, who has been called 'The Father of the American Revolution' wrote The Rights of the Colonists in 1772, which stated: "The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institution of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament."
55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 29 were Anglicans, 16-18 were Calvinists, and among the rest were 2 Methodists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 lapsed Quaker-sometimes Anglican, and only 1 open Deist — Benjamin Franklin who attended all Christian worships and called for public prayer.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/politics/pg0040.html
Judge Nathaniel Freeman in 1802 charged Massachusetts Grand Juries as follows: "The laws of the Christian system, as embraced by the Bible, must be respected as of high authority in all our courts... . [Our government] originating in the voluntary compact of a people who in that very instrument profess the Christian religion, it may be considered, not as republic Rome was, a Pagan, but a Christian republic." In 1811 ( People v Ruggles), New York Chief Justice James Kent held: "'...whatever strikes at the root of Christianity tends manifestly to the dissolution of civil government... .' We are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity... . Christianity in its enlarged sense, as a religion revealed and taught in the Bible, is part and parcel of the law of the land... ." In 1824, the Pennsylvania Supreme court held ( Updegraph v The Commonwealth): Christianity, general Christianity, is and always has been a part of the common law...not Christianity founded on any particular religious tenets; not Christianity with an established church, but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men... ."
There's just way too much stuff out there to contradict this one finding you have to assume that our founders ever wanted the country to have this bizarre mile long fence between God and country.
The fact is you are an atheist. You just don't want others to be exposed to God. I don't pretend to understand atheism, but you have to admit your prejudices.
I'd like to know exactly how does one go through life without any hope after death? I mean death has to bug you doesn't it? You don't have any real reason to exist. No purpose other than fulfilling your own desires, true?
Why would you want others to share in your dismal view of life? At least let others live in happy ignorance if that's what you believe they are doing.
Please understand the reason I mention this, is because you can't seem to draw a line logically between what kind of society we had in the 1800's and early 1900's and what we have now in regards to God in schools, prayer, government etc. There is no constitutional mandate to remove God only to not force one particular religion. Forced religion and expressing ideas about God or even prayer are miles apart. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 07 May 2009 20:42 Last Edited By: pakratmak
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Quote: It was by our Christian principles that our founding fathers realized we shouldn't create laws to force people to belong to certain churches.
That's just a fraction of the whole picture, but I'll play along-what supposed Christian principles would those be?
Quote: Justice Story wrote for a unanimous Supreme Court in 1844 ( Vidal v Girard's Executors): "It is also said, and truly that the Christian religion is a part of the common law... ."
That one wasn't a speech but part of an actual court opinion.
The opening of his statement is not a ruling, nevermind that it was wrong.
Quote: And why would Our sixth President, John Quincy Adams say "From the day of the Declaration...they [the American people] were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct" if Christianity had no bearing on the frame work of our country.
We've slinked away from it being the foundation to having a bearing on the 'framework'.? I never said Christians weren't involved in the process...
Quote: Samuel Adams, who has been called 'The Father of the American Revolution' wrote The Rights of the Colonists in 1772,
See my previous statement in this thread about the colonies versus the actual beginning of the nation. It was specifically the mishandling of the colonies that led to that part of the first amendment about church and state.
Quote: 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 29 were Anglicans, 16-18 were Calvinists, and among the rest were 2 Methodists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 lapsed Quaker-sometimes Anglican, and only 1 open Deist — Benjamin Franklin who attended all Christian worships and called for public prayer.
You have to love how this is quote mined from a senator's speech and not fact checked at all. By the way, with a mix like that, how could you possibly put yourselves under one banner, since there's a more than likely chance that any of those designations you don't belong to, you probably don't consider 'real Christians' to begin with?
Quote: Judge Nathaniel Freeman in 1802 charged Massachusetts Grand Juries as follows: "The laws of the Christian system, as embraced by the Bible, must be respected as of high authority in all our courts... . [Our government] originating in the voluntary compact of a people who in that very instrument profess the Christian religion, it may be considered, not as republic Rome was, a Pagan, but a Christian republic."
See the ... in the middle? The statement is not complete. Why might it not be complete? Could the full wording give it a different spin? Of course it's still not a ruling of any sort, but if you find the full quote we can definitely come back to it.
Same thing with the next two sets of quotes your author listed- those omissions are glaring and none of those are court rulings either.
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Quote: There's just way too much stuff out there to contradict this one finding you have to assume that our founders ever wanted the country to have this bizarre mile long fence between God and country.
I hope you have better 'stuff' then, like actual full quotes and actual laws and verifiable history to make your case with. The founders knew to have as little comingling between a person's faith and the law as possible so that neither could contaminate the other. That separation isn't about keeping God away from people or making them nonbelievers, it was to leave the individual free to pursue their own choice of faith without governement force behind it, whether that person be a Christian like the majority, or a Deist or a Jew or a nonbeliever, like the rest.
Considering that one of the main tenets this new republic was founded on was the rights of the individual versus the collective, the actual idea of that church/state section of the first amendment was that you were protected in believing or not believing as you saw fit without fear of government intervention or reprisal. This was not done to give Christianity anything above any other group or interest and if anything, was done to keep political power out of the church-for the gain >or< the loss of said church.
Quote: The fact is you are an atheist.
Can't accuse you of not paying attention.
Quote: You just don't want others to be exposed to God.
Not only is that false, but I welcome you to point out where I might have even suggested such nonsense.
Quote: I don't pretend to understand atheism
It's pretty simple actually. You hear what's offered as evidence and decide whether or not you believe in it as far as deities, holy texts or wholesale mysticism go. If you are not swayed by what those people or texts offer, you are instantly an atheist. No muss, no fuss.
Quote: I'd like to know exactly how does one go through life without any hope after death?
I have been given what I consider the choice between an unpleasant truth and a pleasant lie and chose truth of the two. Why is it only hope and not a certainty for you?
Quote: I mean death has to bug you doesn't it?
I'm certainly not looking forward to it, but I'm not bothered by it either. Considering what you say you believe you're going to move on to after this life, you must be pretty anxious to just get on with it yourself, hoping for some fatal accident or nuclear bombing to move you on to paradise?
Quote: You don't have any real reason to exist.
If this earth is Satan's domain and the life after this one was paradise compared to this fallen realm, THEN I'd have no reason to exist.
Quote: No purpose other than fulfilling your own desires, true?
I can't argue with that. I do seek to fulfill my own desires, at no cost and no harm to anyone else and I don't pretend to do things for others when they are actually for me. Can you honestly say the same?
Quote: Why would you want others to share in your dismal view of life?
My views of life aren't dismal, except on the rare occasion that it is by all accounts actually dismal to the best of my estimability. I don't claim this is a fallen realm, I don't pine for some 'reward' only to be gained after I'm dead, and I don't live in mock servitude. Fair is fair, so I have to ask you the same question. Why would you want others to share in your dismal view of life?
Quote: At least let others live in happy ignorance if that's what you believe they are doing.
I don't go door to door preaching. I don't stand in front of supermarkets trying poor salesmanship tactics in the form of fearmongering or making empty promises to sway opinions. I don't hand out volumes of literature to school children trying to convert them. I don't use 'higher powers' to try begging for money. I don't lie outright for the sake of protecting my illicit income. I tolerate all of you, quietly and respectfully, in my day to day affairs. What we do here is just a little bit different from those normal day to day affairs though. It's similar to the rare occasion that someone has questions for me when they know I'm an atheist out in the real world. It's an open dialogue.
Looking at your statements, I again have to point your gun back on yourself. At least let others live in happy ignorance if that's what you believe they are doing.
Quote: you can't seem to draw a line logically between what kind of society we had in the 1800's and early 1900's and what we have now in regards to God in schools, prayer, government etc.
There's many things I can be accused of but not being able to act or think logically is not one of them. I have to say this statement fits you much much more than it could ever apply to me. I know well what time it is, do you?
Quote: There is no constitutional mandate to remove God only to not force one particular religion. Forced religion and expressing ideas about God or even prayer are miles apart.
Nobody is trying to 'remove God', whatever that means. I already spoke on the first amendment earlier and that should cover as a response to what was said here as well. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 08 May 2009 21:43
Administrator Currently Offline
Posts: 4107
Join Date: Jul 2007
See it's pointless. Maybe we should stick to the news for a while.
The average atheist is more of an evangelist for their beliefs than the average Christian. That's what I can't understand. What's with all the drive to tell people we are a bunch of monkeys that die and that's it. So have fun, drink, take drugs, screw around, and party harty, but for the sake of society don't hurt nobody else.
I can tell you right now everbody that just does whatever they want in life usually finds out the hard way it's not always so fun. Darn consequences get in the way all the time. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 09 May 2009 12:31
Registered User
Posts: 3674
Join Date: Aug 2007
Let's see.
Couldn't address any of my points, refute any of my arguments or even answer your own questions turned back on you. Typical, but still disappointing.
No problem spouting nonsense though- that's plentiful in your post.
Calling an atheist an evangelist is like calling bald a hair color.
You claim atheists have certain beliefs you can't understand- List as many as you can think of and I'll respond to each.
The only people that claim we are monkeys are morons or creationists creating strawmen arguments- wait, that's redundant. One group says that sillyness and it's not atheists and it's certainly not anyone that even loosely accepts evolution as plausible.
Your list of ills that people do? Christians do them too. The funny thing is, I don't drink, don't do drugs, screw around or 'party harty' (whatever the hell that is). Being an atheist doesn't mean doing these things and being a Christian doesn't exclude others from doing these things. Your insinuation is foolish, even as the last resort jab it was. By the way, even if this person who was doing these things was hurting themselves and nobody else, what business is it of yours or mine or any other stranger?
Supposedly you were given free will, so to suggest that you are not doing whatever you yourself want goes against this. On that note, being aware of consequences is not exclusive to Christendom-that would be the supposed consequences you think you're sure of-those were your exclusive membership bonus gift from SaulPaul.
So, if you've got nothing else (like all those principles and laws and rulings you must have been joking about) it stands that America is not a 'Christian Nation'. So be it.
Back to the news then. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Ok it wasn't a million things that was an exaggeration.
