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| Posted: 22 Apr 2009 16:17 |
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We just have a difference in opinion I guess on how the bad guys operate. See I think the bad guys, commies, fascists, etc will not just sit behind their borders peacefully if they think they can go out and terrorize, destroy, or whatever somewhere else. That's just what they do. Evil men do evil things.
You think if the world just left Hitler alone he would have stayed put. The British thought back before WWII Hitler's word could be trusted and look what it got them.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2009 20:24 |
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Our difference of opinion starts with vocabulary and gets fostered by media intake, which then gets filtered through priorities and personal understanding of politics and/or priorities, to finally be expressed in what we choose to focus on in that moment. As much as you seem to think 'liberals' and 'conservatives' are polar and exclusionary opposites, the truth is they are both seeking the same things and their ideology is just different in how to attain them. This would explain where our differences lie as well-the focus and the methods. I'll be bold and say that this is the fundamental difference between our government and any other as well. People all generally want the same basic things, it's the paths we choose to follow to achieve them that makes the difference.
Take this for instance:
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See I think the bad guys, commies, fascists, etc will not just sit behind their borders peacefully if they think they can go out and terrorize, destroy, or whatever somewhere else. That's just what they do. Evil men do evil things.
You're bound to be talking about Russia invading Georgia or maybe about the monster Ahmadinejad is painted as by the good folks at Fox(yes, I brought up Fox specifically because of the section about the 'bad guys'-you unwillingly sounded like that jackass O'Reilly-unfortunately, it might have been intentional on your part-he's a buffoon, please don't use this as a mentor), as well as other media outlets who feed their consumers fear as the main course.
I, on the other hand, think immediately of our governemnt invading Afghanistan and Iraq and now trying to pull off the hat trick by invading Iran.
Why speak of fascism in reference to what Iran might become? We just had a key member of the intelligence community assure us that everybody in this country got wire tapped without a warrant and the recent VP admitting to using torture techniques. Consider exactly how badly we really get taxed at every possible turn and then on what and how that money is spent, and then try to convince me that I should be the slightest bit concerned with what he says about Israel. On that note, tell me with sincerity that you think Israel is really that helpless to just sit by and let him do anything to them.
On a final note, I have to wonder how many times Hitler needs to get mentioned somewhere before the possibility of actually summoning him becomes tangible. How about letting things be judged on their own merits and reasonably instead of the rediculous jump to linking everything with Adolph for a change?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 22 Apr 2009 22:18 |
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You know the reason I mention Hitler is because it's a good example. If we don't pay attention to what happened in the past we are doomed to relive the same errors. It seems that World War II is the most clear example to follow when dealing with terrorists, fascists, commies etc.
Our country may not be perfect, but it's a far cry from countries that put people in jail for how they worship. How many human rights violations do you think Iran has and to what severity compared to the US? Nobody believes we should put blinders on in what happens in the USA, but in this day and time you can't just hope our neighbors are all going to leave us be in peace.
From your tone it sounds like you would do away with defense or at least most of it. If we don't defend our right to live then nothing else matters. You can't have liberty if you are dead or enslaved by dictators. I also believe we need to spend more money on better trained law enforcement that knows the law, abides by it, and one that doesn't scare the citizens they are sworn to protect.
Again because being free, you first have to be safe to walk down the street without fear of being attacked.
In short as far as Iran goes if they build nuclear bombs that is something that must be taken very very seriously. I cannot see America or Israel feeling very secure with Iran having it's finger on a nuclear trigger.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2009 00:55 |
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Hitler is an overused example for all the evils of the world-so much so that it takes whatever is compared to him out of focus. This is not that time period- the politics have changed, the media has changed, the technology and science have changed and most importantly, the people have changed. People use him as some sort of universal example, that makes what he actually did pale in comparison to the picture they want to paint. Leave that bastard in the ground and let's move on.
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We do not have the right to meddle in other countries' affairs. Period. You do not one single justification for doing so. Fear of 'they might come for us' does not justify trying to run their operations. Our country needs to stop playing world police.
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From your tone it sounds like you would do away with defense or at least most of it.
No sir, that's one of the legitmimate functions of our government-to defend us from enemies. I want the highest level of legitimate protection we can devise. Understand that I don't believe that protection necessitates having military bases and installations all over the world in foreign countries. Those are not a legitimate defense in my opinion, but instead an imposition on the rest of the world. It is that imposition that created 'terrorism' in the first place-our unwanted presence where it did not belong. This thing they call terrorism is the backlash that our governemnt invited in the first place by not minding it's business properly.
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You can't have liberty if you are dead or enslaved by dictators.
I'd really like you to rethink your premises on a statement of this sort. Who are you calling dictators and why, and what are they doing so different than what our government is already doing or would do in the exact same circumstances?
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you first have to be safe to walk down the street without fear of being attacked.
Another thing to check your premises on. Why aren't your streets safe? Where does crime come from? You're speaking in rhetoric instead of getting down to what's actually happening around us and I guarantee if you stopped watching news entertainment you'd feel incredibly safer almost immediately. No extra laws or bigger government or more legislation or world policing necessary-just shut off the boob tube and you'll feel safer.
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Going back to Iran, and a few other topics while we're here: You can believe anything you like for any reason you like-this is about politics and faith matters as well. You don't have to justify a thing to anyone about these beliefs for any reason whatsoever just so you can believe them for yourself. When you have the need to convince other people however, you're playing a whole new game now. You need something to convince others of what you're saying to bring them around to your point of view. Keeping that in mind, if you have some need to bring me specifically around to your point of view on anything, in this particular case Iran, you need evidence to back up your claims, not rhetoric, not bumper sticker colloquialisms and not regurgitated fearmongering. Just the verifiable facts, please, or don't expect me to join you in the scared irrational huddle of Fox viewers.
Do they have bombs or not, yes or no?
Do they have the capability of making them, yes or no?
Do they have the capability of inflicting damage on anyone with a bomb if they had one, yes or no?
If they did possess bombs and had to capacity to use them to inflict damage, do you have proof they would actually carry out such an attack, yes or no?
If they did have such weapons, and the ability to use them, and the want to use them, what makes them any worse than any other country we could say the same about, especially our own?
Lastly, loosely related but incredibly important: Does the factor of their government being affected(maybe even infected as it were) by Islam have anything to do with your worries? I'll bet it plays a huge part. Maybe it doesn't play any part? Eagerly awaiting the response to this.
I'm also still waiting to hear some sort of explanation on how you turn nuclear waste into bomb material. You can do it-just let your imagination finish the job it started.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2009 18:31 |
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I think I'll just respectfully say we have to agree to disagree on this one. I just have a totally different world view when it comes to defense strategies than you do. You think we should leave other countries alone. I can respect that. I just don't think all countries can be left completely alone because we can't expect them to stay to themselves without causing harm to us later on.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Apr 2009 19:45 |
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It's not a matter of leaving them alone to isolate ourselves and they can do whatever they want without a concern of how it might affect us. Just losing the unnecessary entanglements and the whole host of wasteful spending and glaring hate they create.
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we can't expect them to stay to themselves without causing harm to us later on.
How many countries with some of our permanent military bases in their borders are thinking the exact same thing? We would never allow another country to build bases in this country-why should they allow us the same imposition?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2009 18:57 |
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Well I reckon some countries would be happy to have free defense a US military base gives them. It's not like America goes in and strips countries of their right to vote, own land, and other liberties our constitution affords us. Now a commie country on the other hand is a different story. If they go in they don't believe in individual freedom like we do.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Apr 2009 21:32 |
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Would you be happy with 'free defense' from some other country? Think about it and be honest with at least yourself. There's no sound justification in allowing someone else's military to occupy your land even at the outskirts. In case you need a real reminder- think back to when Japan wanted to purchase Pearl Harbor and the uproar that caused-and that would have been a legal purchase, instead of just setting up shop with their military.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2009 15:12 |
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Would you be happy with 'free defense' from some other country? That's not our problem.
Take Japan for instance. We wouldn't have been there to start with if they hadn't started something with bombing Pearl Harbor. We defeated them. Now they are a good ally. I don't think they are complaining about our military help either.
Just how would you deal with a country if in fact they were planning an attack on the US?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2009 20:28 |
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You avoided my question, which is actually enough of an answer for me.
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Just how would you deal with a country if in fact they were planning an attack on the US?
Prove they were actually planning an attack for starters, instead of just believeing whatever showed up on TV. Otherwise, 'That's not our problem'.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 27 Apr 2009 22:08 |
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We go on like this for so long sometimes I forget what the original point was.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Apr 2009 10:39 |
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According to the thread header, Russia was reassuring us that Iran poses no threat.
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 28 Apr 2009 14:59 |
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Right and I say that's a joke.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 28 Apr 2009 20:18 |
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What's the joke, you thinking Iran's a threat or Russia reminding us of our uneasy alliance?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 29 Apr 2009 17:20 |
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I think it's a joke to even listen to Russia about who we can trust or not trust or who is a danger and who isn't. Russia don't give one flying fig what's best for us or the rest of the world.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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