Nicolas Cage teaching science class ponders at the beginning of the movie, "Knowing", how the sun is just the right distance from the earth to sustain life. He questions could there be order to the universe. A purpose perhaps? Utterly despaired looking downward he proclaims to his class and himself that basically there is no order just *&^% happens. Seemed to me he made an excellent argument against evolution with those few statements. How discouraging a world view in my opinion to believe there is no purpose in life just random chance.
Let's just say while it started very interesting it finishes way off track. The ending doesn't fit the clues at the beginning. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 20:33
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Quote: how the sun is just the right distance from the earth to sustain life. He questions could there be order to the universe
&
Quote: he made an excellent argument against evolution with those few statements.
= nonsense.
They have nothing to do with each other. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 22:15
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Listen how do you explain the universe being nothing but random chance when everything has to be exactly in the right place to sustain life? There's nothing random about life. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 24 Mar 2009 13:15
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First, nobody says 'the universe is nothing but random chance' except moronic creationists. The universe and how it got here have NOTHING to do with evolution either.
That sillyness about how everything had to be in the right place for us to be here is true, but misleading in the way you're referencing it. We are here because of those factors and how we adapted to them, not the other way around of everything being created solely for our benefit.
Quote: There's nothing random about life.
jhdsfuiwyefhbsdjfhgwqgwyfrlqwiugflbshqelkgh.
(rethink that last one-false premise) __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 24 Mar 2009 15:34
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Either there is order put in place by someone or it's all an accident. We don't control how far the sun is from earth. You think evolution could adapt a human to temps above 200 degrees or a thousand degrees? That's a lot of faith in evolution.
But that's just the tip of the iceberg. Think about how complicated our bodies are. Our eyes, ears, nose, We breathe, we see, we hear, we feel. Can you explain emotions through evolution? How about laughter? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 24 Mar 2009 20:51
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Quote: Either there is order put in place by someone or it's all an accident.
Given the choice, it must be an accident then. Has nothing to do with evolution either way.
Quote: We don't control how far the sun is from earth.
Can you imagine if we did? This statement doesn't seem to be saying anything at all. It's certainly not about evolution.
Quote: You think evolution could adapt a human to temps above 200 degrees or a thousand degrees?
The lifeforms we evolved from would have had to survive that first. If they did, then yes, we could have.
Quote: Think about how complicated our bodies are.
*Proof* of evolutionary process.
Quote: Our eyes, ears, nose, We breathe, we see, we hear, we feel
Like all the other animals. What was the point of this?
Quote: Can you explain emotions through evolution? How about laughter?
That actually might be a good question. Where are emotions to begin with? Stimuli to outside events wrapped up with personal developed responses and shaded by pack animal behavior in how we perceive ourselves in the presence of others? This could have evolved or it might be just learned behavior-prove one or the other.
As for the laughter, this is also something animals do. If there were some watchmaker who held us a peg or two above the other animals, why would we share so many traits with them? Either that watchmaker is lazy or contemptuous, the reports of their love for us are vastly exaggerated or there is no watchmaker. I'm going with 'no watchmaker' as the frontrunner-we certainly don't need one to explain things. I do realize that someone or a group of someones could have possibly existed at one time that had some sort of hand in shaping this existance, however infantismally small that possibility may be, so the 'watchmaker not caring' part would naturally follow. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 24 Mar 2009 21:12
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Quote: Has nothing to do with evolution either way.
Ok then what do you refer to it as because big bang, evolution it's all the same thing to me.
Quote: Like all the other animals. What was the point of this?
And you say we creationists aren't scientific. Isn't science about observing? Observe the miracle of creation. Think about the logic of believing complex organisms and functions could just be by countless accidents.
What confuses me is how evolutionists say that we evolved eyes or ears because we needed them. I need money but I don't evolve it. I got to go out and work for it. I do the work. I get it. So who did the work to evolve eyes and so forth. Do you believe are brains told our bodies to make eyes or something? Because just saying it's evolution doesn't make sense. Evolution is not a physical entity that can do anything. Especially confusing when you go way back to single cell organisms becoming complex organisms. To say it just evolved seems awfully easy considering it's supposed to be a scientific answer.
Quote: I do realize that someone or a group of someones could have possibly existed at one time that had some sort of hand in shaping this existance, however infantismally small that possibility may be, so the 'watchmaker not caring' part would naturally follow
Wow, I almost consider that progress. Don't know why you would think the creator didn't care though. That assumes a lot. The Bible does after all give explanations as to why this old world is in the shape it's in. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 24 Mar 2009 21:32
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Quote: because big bang, evolution it's all the same thing to me.
That's your fault for not knowing. Big Bang-cosmology & origin of the universe, life from non-life is abiogenesis and evolution is the origin for the vast amount of species on this planet. Three different things that get jumbled together on the first page of Genesis. Look them up.
Quote: Isn't science about observing? Observe the miracle of creation.
Science is observing natural phenomena through natural means-this means ignoring what people call 'miracles' for starters.
Quote: Think about the logic of believing complex organisms and functions could just be by countless accidents.
Study evolution and get back to me.
Quote: What confuses me is how evolutionists say that we evolved eyes or ears because we needed them. I need money but I don't evolve it. I got to go out and work for it. I do the work. I get it. So who did the work to evolve eyes and so forth.
Study some logic and get back to me on this as well. You're using two versions of the word need in two different cases to try and connect disparate premises-that would be a foul, and a fail. Since your premises aren't actually connected logically, the rest of what you've built on it can't even be considered. I know that seems nitpicky to you and that's just tough. I'm going to hold you to a higher standard from now on.
Quote: Don't know why you would think the creator didn't care though.
Shoddy craftsmanship and design, the sheer brutality of nature, lack of any evidence of their presence(s), no recent miracles or evidence of past ones, cancer and Desperate Housewives-just to name a few. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 25 Mar 2009 15:29
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Quote: ignoring what people call 'miracles' for starters.
Even if ignoring miracles means ignoring creation itself?
Quote: Study some logic and get back to me on this as well.
So basically you don't want to tackle that one then. The basic argument is sound. How can anything evolve anything based only on need? Especially if it's some unthinking amoeba.
If evolution were true then if humans needed wings to survive somehow in a million years they'd have them which is ridiculous is it not.
Desperate Housewives is a sign there is a devil. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 25 Mar 2009 22:53
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Quote: Even if ignoring miracles means ignoring creation itself?
Especially if. If 'creation' relies on miracles to explain it's origins, then that is not science and deserves no more respect as an explanation for anything than you'd pay your daily horoscope.
Quote: So basically you don't want to tackle that one then.
I said study some logic and that's exactly what I meant. Your argument is flawed. I even explained why. VV
Quote: You're using two versions of the word need in two different cases to try and connect disparate premises-that would be a foul, and a fail.
Your argument relied on awkward wordplay and was not sound.
Quote: If evolution were true then if humans needed wings to survive somehow in a million years they'd have them which is ridiculous is it not.
We do have shoulder blades already. It's not likely we'd develop wings, but it can't be completely ruled out either. The real issue there is probably whether or not humans are gonna actually be here in a million years. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 26 Mar 2009 16:12
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Quote: If 'creation' relies on miracles to explain it's origins, then that is not science and deserves no more respect as an explanation for anything than you'd pay your daily horoscope.
So basically that sounds like you are saying even if God did create the world, you don't want to know about it.
I don't think you are getting my point about the wings.
I guess it's hard to explain in writing, but let me try again. See I'm just saying that even if things evolved there would have to be some outside force controlling that. A human can't will themselves to grow wings. An one celled organism sure can't will itself to grow eyes. How it would it know it needed eyes to see what. It doesn't understand the concept nor anything else for that matter. So to say simple organisms evolved with everything they needed because evolution dictated it is to say evolution is some kind of intelligent entity all to itself. You've basically gave God a new name. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 26 Mar 2009 17:50
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Quote: So basically that sounds like you are saying even if God did create the world, you don't want to know about it.
If there is agency in the creation of the universe we have no proof of that being the case, there only being one, or which one that would be. I'd be absolutely fascinated in seeing and hearing something besides wordplay and anecdotal nonsense-so would most of the world. I can not only handle new evidence that challenges my long held views,I welcome it-can you say the same?
As for the wings and the eyes, you're still holding on to some idea that we or any other creature can make a change during the same lifespan-the changes happen >slowly< from generation to generation, not like the X-Men where some lucky character wakes up and has wings one day. This confusion of yours is what's holding you back from understanding even the basics(which honestly is what I've got as I'm not a biologist or anything). It would seem you're still trying to hold on to that idea of a young earth no matter what and it hinders you from getting those basics-this is not truth and is certainly not the path ones takes to get to truth. You've got some homework to do-I can find (more) study materials for you if you like, and I'd be glad to do so-just ask. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 26 Mar 2009 22:45
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Whether it takes one generation or a 100 million doesn't matter. The basic understanding I've gotten from evolutionists is that the environment creates a need for some sort of mutation and then evolution occurs to survive said obstacle in nature. As if evolution were in itself an intelligence directing traffic. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 26 Mar 2009 23:26
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Evolution is an outcome and the process to achieve that outcome, not an intelligence. It doesn't make choices and it doesn't play favorites-it doesn't do anything.
'Evolutionists' is a silly word BTW. It sounds like gravitationists. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 27 Mar 2009 16:44
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I understand it's a supposed outcome, but it's always assumed to be the process of which we evolved eyes, ears, walking up right etc.
A process from going from a lesser being to a greater being. Point is even in that scenario there would have to be an intelligence guiding toward that goal.
Not that I believe God used evolution because I don't, but it just seems in any scenario there would have to be a guiding hand, and until I see muscle cars putting themselves together, or houses popping up by themselves I'm going to keep believing God created the world. Of course if I saw a car evolve I'd probably have to say God did that too. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 27 Mar 2009 21:11
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Quote: Point is even in that scenario there would have to be an intelligence guiding toward that goal.
No, it doesn't have to be an intelligence and it doesn't need agency to pull it off in the first place. All animals adapt from generation to generation or they wind up dying out. It's that simple-no god necessary.
Quote: muscle cars putting themselves together, or houses popping up by themselves
When watches and houses and cars are capable of reproducing themselves, then we'll tackle that as a working analogy-for now that doesn't work. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 28 Mar 2009 22:10
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The reason animals can reproduce themselves is God made them that way. How else you think every living thing just happened to have that ability? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 29 Mar 2009 01:45
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Not every living thing has that ability actually if the ability you speak of is sexual reproduction where two parents create offspring. Take mold or bacteria or cancer cells for instance. Interesting also, I've never seen you give credit to God for creating cancer-is that an oversight on my part or you just can't bring yourself to do it?
Even if that was true, just by stating things as fact-explain how it wasn't Zeus or Allah or any of the hundreds of other super-beings that people have claimed agency through. If you're going to tell me as definite evidence that 'it just wasn't them' than God gets dismissed exactly the same way 'It can't be him either then'. Your task is to show how it is definitely done by one of these beings, and then which one. Also, if your answer involves simple 'because the Bible says so' then this gets dismissed by 'other books say not'. Provide something the rest of us can agree on or you don't have an argument. You can keep your faith but you won't be dragging me along on the bait you're attempting to use.
Of course, you could just be honest and say 'I don't know'. You seem to have a big problem with those words though. Almost as bad as 'I made a mistake'. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 30 Mar 2009 18:58 Last Edited By: Tim
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Well at least I can I'm in very good company. I'd wager that 90 percent to 99 percent of the founding fathers believed God created the world. I bet you wouldn't of heard George Washington giving credit to Allah for creation or give credit to evolution either.
Oh ye of little faith. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 30 Mar 2009 20:37 Last Edited By: pakratmak
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Quote: I'd wager that 90 percent to 99 percent of the founding fathers believed God created the world.
You'd lose-many were deists and (as I've just discovered)Unitarians. That's a lower case g and not a personal god for the most part. Impartial Providence without the absurdities of the old and new testaments. Those who followed Jesus' teachings could do so without the sham of his 'divinity'. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 31 Mar 2009 18:06
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A lot of people disagree with the idea most of our founders were deists for starters, second the definition of a deist - "Deism is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme natural God exists and created the physical universe, and that religious truths can be arrived at by the application of reason and observation of the natural world."
That would still mean they believed God created the world. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 31 Mar 2009 19:45
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Quote: A lot of people disagree with the idea most of our founders were deists for starters
and I disagree with them. The disagreeing doesn't mean anything by itself. Start pulling up actual quotes where any of them said they were actually a Christian and you'll have something.
Your definition of deist os limited as well and has nothing to do with the Christian god. The 'application of reason' means using logic and evidence not faith or mysticism and 'observation of the natural world' is clearly science, which clearly has nothing to do with the Bible. So no, deists do not believe God created anything. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 31 Mar 2009 21:38
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They do by definition believe God created the world.
Well lets' see Benjamin Frankling was supposed to be a theists but he sure talked about God a lot.
Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God.
Benjamin Franklin
God helps those who help themselves.
God heals, and the Doctor takes the Fees.
Serving God is Doing Good to Man, but Praying is thought an easier Service, and therefore more generally chosen.
It has pleased God in his Goodness to Mankind, at length to discover to them the Means of securing their Habitations and other Buildings from Mischief by Thunder and Lightning. -(talking about the lightning rod)
The Way to see by Faith, is to shut the Eye of Reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
I like this one worth posting even if it's not going in hand in hand with our debate necessarily. - "He that's content, hath enough; He that complains, has too much."
Rob not God, nor the Poor, lest thou ruin thyself; the Eagle snatcht a Coal from the Altar, but it fired her Nest. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 01 Apr 2009 00:01
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Quote: They do by definition believe God created the world.
They believe in a deity but not the Christian one- a god, not God. It doesn't change regardless of wordplay or how badly you want it to be otherwise.
Next, show me a quote from Franklin or any of the others that states specifically their religious affiliation. I read in a number of sources that they were mainly deists, some were atheist or none were atheist and you guys with how they must have all been Christian-the only one that stands up to the 'light of reason' is that the majority of their group was in fact deist, at least by what they professed. Show me somebody saying they were a Christian of some stripe or I have no reason to change my mind on it. What that means is someone specifically saying they are a Christian or a Baptist or a Catholic or atheist or deist or what have you.
By the way, this quote:
Quote: The Way to see by Faith, is to shut the Eye of Reason: The Morning Daylight appears plainer when you put out your Candle.
is a knock against Christianity and other faith based religions, not a testimony for them. Look at it again. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 01 Apr 2009 13:24
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I thought it might be better if I let an actual deist explain deism instead of myself.
and one on the 'Watchmaker' argument:
and a note on our founding fathers, from the same deist(plenty of quotes-enjoy):
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 01 Apr 2009 13:38
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I had to throw this one in as well, specifically because it includes part of what you quoted from Ben franklin alongside something much more profound he said and the whole thing aligns nicely with the last one I posted previously.
__________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 01 Apr 2009 19:51
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No videos from Ben Franklin himself I see. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 01 Apr 2009 21:01
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The exact same amount as Jesus himself has done. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 02 Apr 2009 14:48
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I got a whole book on him though. And a whole bunch of witnesses. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 02 Apr 2009 20:46
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Any sign you have a clue what deism is now or not? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
