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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 13:35 |
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I believe as sure as I'm sitting in this chair that Mrs Bill clinton will be the next president. I think this because I believe that the majority of the American people are too ill-informed and apathetic to live in a free society, and we'll get Mrs. Clinton because socialism and centralization is what the majority of the people want. I also believe we are seeing the twilight of the constitutional republic known as America. America will no doubt continue to exist as a place, but it's nature has been slowly changing, and unfortunately, I believe its decline is irreversible.
This situation has been a long time coming, and only a recommitment to the principles of individual liberty by a majority of the population will save it. But since most people don't understand conceptually what liberty is, they feel no need to really defend it, preferring the chains of security. Anyway, that's how I see it.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 15:31 |
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Whoa. So, Ron Paul for President?
Preacher Man- I know you're not prone to such general statements- what has HClinton done to provoke this?
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 17:11 |
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Danny, first of all, good to see you.
Secondly, I'm probably just gettign cynical in my old age, but the more I look around, the more I see that people want to hand more and more control of their lives off to the government. "Ooh, look, pretty handcuffs"
Thirdly, you know, there's a lot of stuff about Ron Paul that I like, some things I don't like, but either way, he doesn't have a chance. With the Democrats you get socialism, with the Republicans you get a slightly smaller socialism, because after all, that's what people want.
I was always told I would get more moderate as I got older, but I seem to have become more radical.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 18:57 |
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I was always told I would get more moderate as I got older, but I seem to have become more radical.
I would say it's just society around you becoming more liberal while you stay the same. I feel the same way.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 20 Sep 2007 19:02 |
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Captain America
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Once again, liberalism always wins in the long run. Always. Conservatism seeks to halt progress, hence it will become outmoded. And eventually dead. Sure, it gets its resurgences, and that's fine. Let those riding at the end of the parade catch up. But conservatism is always doomed in the end.
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| Posted: 21 Sep 2007 19:50 |
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Conservatism seeks to halt progress, hence it will become outmoded. And just what is your idea of progress, a world where individual liberty is no more perhaps? A world where hillary is our new official queen, and the government takes care of all of us like little babies as long as march in goose step to liberal causes.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 21 Sep 2007 20:01 |
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Captain America
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And just what is your idea of progress, a world where individual liberty is no more perhaps? A world where hillary is our new official queen, and the government takes care of all of us like little babies as long as march in goose step to liberal causes.
Um, you can't lambaste (look it up) liberals for being socially loose and permissive (drugs, sex, etc.) and then say they want to crack down on individual liberty. It's comical.
And I don't want the government to take care of all of us. I do want those who can't to have a safety net, and the government can help provide that. I want our government to protect us without stamping on my individual liberties. And I want the government to regulate business, so we don't get bad products and poor working conditions.
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| Posted: 21 Sep 2007 20:06 |
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Um, you can't lambaste (look it up) liberals for being socially loose and permissive (drugs, sex, etc.) and then say they want to crack down on individual liberty. It's comical. yes, I can because that the idiocy of liberalism. They want to live like the devil, and restrict religious liberty. They want to raise taxes on hard working Americans and basically kill of the entrepreneurial spirit in America.
They want to regulate speech, by calling it hate speech. They want to change curriculm in schools to their own way of believing and say screw everybody else. Should I go on?
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And I don't want the government to take care of all of us. I do want those who can't to have a safety net, and the government can help provide that. Well doesn't your leader hillary want universal health care for everyone regardless of the cost? Doesn't liberalism in general ask for larger and larger government?
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 21 Sep 2007 20:14 |
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Captain America
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Well doesn't your leader hillary want universal health care for everyone regardless of the cost? Doesn't liberalism in general ask for larger and larger government?
Your president has overseen the largest inflation of the federal government since Roosevelt. And with very little of the success he promised … certainly less than FDR delivered.
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They want to live like the devil, and restrict religious liberty.
Most liberals don't seek to restrict religious freedom. We don't want the government to endorse a specific religion. I keep saying I have no problem with christmas decorations, but nod to the other winter holidays held by other people in the community.
And if I wanna live like the devil, what's it to you, anyway? What I do behind closed doors is my biz. And screw anyone who wants to tell me different.
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They want to raise taxes on hard working Americans and basically kill of the entrepreneurial spirit in America.
Well, raising taxes is going to happen in the next few years because your president has run up the hugest debt we've ever had. Whether a Dem or a Repub does it depends on who wins in '08.
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| Posted: 23 Sep 2007 10:16 |
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And just what is your idea of progress, a world where individual liberty is no more perhaps? A world where hillary is our new official queen, and the government takes care of all of us like little babies as long as march in goose step to liberal causes.
And now you're stealing from my posts without giving me proper credit. I believe I was the first on this board to warn you of the monarch like power the 44th President of the United States will inherit.
If Hillary ends up royalty, that road to hell will have been paved with the blind acceptance of everything Bush has done to water down your liberties.
But quite honestly, I don't think you even know when to believe what you're saying Tim.
Like Cap pointed out- you think liberals want an authoritarian crackdown, but are also bad for letting society do whatever it wants.
Then you say Hillary is dangerous because she'll be Queen, but we should not question any motive of our current President when it comes to him spying on us.
If you don't see the inherit contradictions in this stuff, then you are the most web savvy mentally challenged person I have ever heard of. You would have to be the Forrest Gump of the internet.
But I don't think that. I think you're just so used to repeating what you've heard that you don't even know what to say now.
Here's my suggestion as a way out of the corner: give moderation a try. Objectively reconsider your contempt for some of these people, and free passes for others. Then blog from that perspective. It won't be any less interesting I assure you. Even we moderates love to split hairs over politics.
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| Posted: 23 Sep 2007 21:37 |
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First of all Danny moderation depends on the perspective of the person. To me I'm the moderate.
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current President when it comes to him spying on us.
You keep saying things that you don't have proof for. As I've said before, he put into a plan of action that taps phones of those contacting known terrorist. Since neither I nor I assume you are in that category what are you afraid of there?
As far as trying to stand up against modern liberalism, well it might seem contradictory because modern liberalism is a very contradictory beast. Now for a moment I'm going to basically go over the modern liberal agendas I don't like. You might be for some or not. That's not the point. I suppose liberals are as varied as the republican party is now.
But anyway, you got liberals that want the gay rights thing pushed till they can get married, and have school kids taught it's ok, on the other hand you got libs that want Christians to shut up, and don't care if they have to legislate it. You got some that hate Christmas, and some that don't care that much according to Cap.
I think you guys should allow that when I speak of liberalism that I may or may not be referring to your specific agendas. In fact I think the more you clarify your positions the better. Please don't just disagree with me to be disagreeable.
And Danny enough of the liberal condescension. I know you libs are the greatest intellects that God...oops evolution has ever created but give it a rest alright.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 23 Sep 2007 22:50 |
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Since neither I nor I assume you are in that category what are you afraid of there?
Future abuses of that power by anybody. Current abuses that, by definition, are not being reported. The wire tapping in question was already legal- but required a warrant. What are YOU afraid of by making this president or any president accountable to someone?
Its called checks and balances chief. The ones that have worked so well here for 200+ years were ALSO inspired by an incompetent King George.
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I think you guys should allow that when I speak of liberalism that I may or may not be referring to your specific agendas. That is an excellent point. But also realize that if you make your statement so general, you're fishing for that response. I have told you- "libs do this" and "ibs do that" will not win you any friends. Why do I hate on the president so much? Those who voted for him should have known better too, but I don't want those people to make a similar mistake. I am unlikely to be effective if i always insult them.
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And Danny enough of the liberal condescension. Haha, no thats just good ole generic condescension. I apologize for my tendency to do that. You'll notice that I try to compliment you too. I don't think you're a bad guy.
When I read stuff that verbally smacks a lot of people, especially on my side of things, especially after reason has been subverted to such a degree post 9/11- I tend to fly off the handle and forget my manners. Then everything gets mixed up in a blur of insults. Who said "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"? Thats one for me to work on.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 14:57 |
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Once again, liberalism always wins in the long run. Always.
There definitely seems to be a cyclical pattern to history in that area. People go from oppression to freedom to prosperity to complacency and then back to opression.(I've probably missed a step ot two there, but you get the point) Like I've said repeatedly, I really do think we're on a downward slide, and unfortunately, an irreversible one.
It is rather grevious to see since I have so many kids that will be growing up in less freedom than I did, but I also don't expect that this whole thing will last too much longer.
Man, am I in a downer mood.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 19:30 |
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Future abuses of that power by anybody. Current abuses that, by definition, are not being reported. The wire tapping in question was already legal- but required a warrant. Ok but let's pretend for a second that Bush is only doing what he says he's doing. If that be the case, what is your beef?
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What are YOU afraid of by making this president or any president accountable to someone? Sure I want accountability, if proof comes out that Bush is abusing power, I want him nailed, but I don't think the wire tapping is one instance of that. I've said a million times, you people have a pretty good case where Bush has locked up two border patrol agents for just shooting a crook in the butt. A crook that got out selling drugs the next week. I guess it's the fact it was a crook that got shot, that makes you not want to touch that one. Wouldn't be liberal to support shooting a crook in the butt.
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It is rather grevious to see since I have so many kids that will be growing up in less freedom than I did, but I also don't expect that this whole thing will last too much longer. just remember what our founders had to go through for their freedom. Never give up, keep plugging away.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 19:41 |
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Captain America
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if proof comes out that Bush is abusing power, I want him nailed
OK, once again — pay attention — after a series of congressional hearings, there has been testimony that points to abuse, but when Congress tries to get the appropriate documents, they are rebuffed and/or told that the documents/emails, etc. have been destroyed.
Now, even Clinton turned over documents subpeoaned by Congress, and he was served with hundreds of subpeonas, as opposed to Bush, who has been served with a dozen or so.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 21:03 |
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Ok but let's pretend for a second that Bush is only doing what he says he's doing. If that be the case, what is your beef?
Let's pretend Bush thought murdering someone was a benefit to the country...wait-bad example-he's kinda done that already....
When a crime is committed, the motive is taken into account to help determine a fair punishement. Regardless of the motive or punishment, crime is still crime.
There is still a question of his first election being rigged-a crime is a crime.
The patriot act which pissed all over the constitution destroyed almost the entire bill of rights-a crime is a crime.
Scooter had no business being pardoned- a crime is a crime.
The issue of nobody supposedly getting hurt by his crimes is moot. He's still a criminal. However, while we're on the topic of results; You say he's done no harm-can you show any positive results at all for the wiretapping?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 21:21 |
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Captain America
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Scooter had no business being pardoned- a crime is a crime.
His sentence was commuted; Bush took away the jail time, despite his being convicted by a jury. And we'll never know what the real fallout was and if a crime was committed because, once again, the Bushies have not been forthcoming.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 21:35 |
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Let's pretend Bush thought murdering someone was a benefit to the country Aww come on, I got to hear this. Who did bush murder?
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The issue of nobody supposedly getting hurt by his crimes is moot. You still are looking over the simple stuff like bad guys want to kill us so we listen in. Nobody on the up and up is getting their phones tapped. Ask yourself what would Dirty Harry do? I know a argument is a argument but this is rediculous. Give me something more than rethoric. If I was the average joe looking through this site and read your comments I would just think it's more liberal propaganda. Tell me step by step how Bush is wrong for tapping phones of terror suspects.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 21:58 |
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Captain America
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Ask yourself what would Dirty Harry do?
Now, that's ridiculous.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 22:22 |
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Not really, I just mean that maybe a kick butt attitude is needed to catch terrorists not one filled with endless loopholes, and technicalities. Again I'd like to know where the innoccent person is that has been harmed by Bush's phone tapping.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 22:30 |
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Captain America
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I'd like to know where the innoccent person is that has been harmed by Bush's phone tapping.
Then write to them and ask them to cooperate with Congress and their investigations to that. Oversight is what Congress is supposed to do.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 22:34 |
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Right now Congress is controlled by dems that want any excuse in the world to hang Bush. I wouldn't trust congress either. Who needs the hassle. I sure don't believe Congress is going to be unbiased about the whole thing no more than I'd believe you'd be. You'd find something to get Bush on if you had to make it up.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 22:44 |
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Captain America
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You'd find something to get Bush on if you had to make it up.
No, I wouldn't. That's a shit assertion, son.
Congress IS supposed to keep an eye on the executive branch, It's one of the implied powers of the constitution. Checks and balances. Did you gripe about it when the GOP congress was slapping subpeonas-by-the-truckload on Clinton?
It's really scary you're so willing to give this administration a pass on so much. I was pretty critical of Bill when he was pres, and he did nothing as heinous as this administration has.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 23:11 |
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I haven't given them a pass on anything. You just aren't interested in the same gripes that I have with Mr. Bush.
__________________Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 23:12 |
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Well, as much as I would like to be on Tim's side on this one, I can't be. My loyalty to liberty trumps my loyalty to any administration and when somebody says "Don't worry, we'll only spy on the bad people", I don't trust them. Especially when it's revealed on a weekly, almost daily basis that the feds have either a)overstepped the original declared intent of a program or b)continued a program that they said they got rid of, just under a different name.
To paraphrase Walter Williams "Just about the only amendment the federal government doesn't violate on a regular basis is the forced quartering of troops."
They've given me no reason to trust them. Sorry, Tim.
__________________1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 23:14 |
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Captain America
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Thank you. There are many conservatives who have issues with the Patriot Act and it's attendant material …
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 23:23 |
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Give me something more than rethoric
Wiretapping without a warrant is an invasion of privacy and a crime. That's not rhetoric. His trying to pass legislation to excuse Cheney and himself from implication in any war crimes(since 9/11 no less) shows, at the absolute very least, that he even thinks he's committed some. Try putting down the TV Guide and picking up Newsweek once in a while.
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any excuse in the world to hang Bush
He crafted his own rope.
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You just aren't interested in the same gripes that I have with Mr. Bush.
What would those be?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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| Posted: 24 Sep 2007 23:36 |
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Who did bush murder?
By ignoring reports he was supposed to read in order to play golf:
About 90 people on United 93.
More than a handful at the Pentagon.
Over 3,000 around ground zero at the world trade center.
By pushing a war on Iraq, with poor planning and just a poor choice of locations, under false pretense:
1,000's of American soldiers.
Hundreds of civilian casualities in Britain for Blair going along with Bush.
Over 130 thousand dead Iraqis-not just soldiers, a mix of supposed soldiers and civilians. The bullets and bombs can't select bad from good any more than a sonic net can in a sweep.
What kind of conservative has body counts similar to any other tyrant in history?
__________________But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
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i'm telling you the MOAB will solve all our problems
