But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 19 Sep 2007 04:27
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We'll agree to disagree, i didn't watch these videos, all i know my great great great great great great great great grandpa was no monkey, or a germ crawling out the ocean...and my grandpa was a boxer(true),and my dad a Caterpiller worker(true), but like i said i didn't watch the videos, probably will tomorrow, just busting your chops is all Pat,i just have a hard time beleiving my great ancestors used to stick there fingers in there butts and sniff(watch a monkey the next time you go to a zoo) like i said i'm just giving you a hard time i'll watch these tomorrow got to go to bed it's late and i'm bored __________________
i'm telling you the MOAB will solve all our problems
Posted: 19 Sep 2007 05:01
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I posted those so everyone here could see what the fuss was actually about. The link we share with primates is a major point they touch upon.
I don't mind a hard time; me and Tim have been going at it for a while now. For the most part it's been fun. Another part of me does seriously want to find some common ground on these issues. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 19 Sep 2007 17:47
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Biochemical evidence for creation
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Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 19 Sep 2007 18:05
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doesn't prove anything one way or another. the only point that's halfway valid is that scientists in the 19th century didn't have the technology of today and made some mistakes. Most complicated science has some early boo-boos. To pick one boo-boo and say everything else was therefore wrong is lazy and disingenuous.
Also, love the neo-Zaxxon graphics. Really brings the point home. What was the point again?
And Aristotle was far smarter and spot-on than that clown in that video and Kirk Cameron.
Posted: 20 Sep 2007 01:27
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Quote: The link we share with primates is a major point they touch upon.
Man i was just kidding about the monkeys heck i didn't even watch them last night, just wanted to make fun of primates __________________
i'm telling you the MOAB will solve all our problems
Posted: 20 Sep 2007 02:44
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Video was a little informative but,as usual, I have a few small problems with it, based solely on it being labeled as evidence for creation.
The narrator is absolutely correct in us being able to view microscopic things much better now. That appears to be the only thing the video is showing, so if I'm wrong there, please point it out. If that is all the vid is showing, it does not disprove Darwin's theory or prove Creationism.
Those were put there so you guys could actually know a little about what you're so dead set against. To possibly speak from knowledge on the subject, not to just prove you wrong, prove me right, convert anyone, sell anything, or start a war of words. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Sep 2007 18:11
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The video is trying to point out when Darwin first made his theory it was based on the idea that single cells were simple in form. Now with modern technology we can see that a cell is much more complex making it even more mathematically improbable that evolution could have occurred. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 20 Sep 2007 18:18
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They don't make that point.
A real moronic doozer there. Not quite the banana vid, but what is?
Posted: 20 Sep 2007 18:53
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Quote: They don't make that point.
Please explain why you feel that way. I think they made their point beyond clear. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 20 Sep 2007 18:55
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They only say that cells are very complicated, they don't prove that some almighty being made them.
Really, where did they prove that? When they said cells are like spaceships with portholes?
Spaceships don't have portholes!
Posted: 21 Sep 2007 01:05
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Darwin's theory is not based on the simplicity of the cells the other guy professed. Please watch the primer. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 16 Oct 2007 01:12
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Here it is again, for anyone that missed it before. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 23 Jun 2008 21:11
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It's been about nine months now Tim-have you watched this yet? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 24 Jun 2008 16:21
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Probably somewhere along the line. I've watched a lot of videos on here.
Have you tried a fundamental Bible believing church service yet? Worst thing that could happen is somebody might shake your hand. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 24 Jun 2008 16:57
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Quote: Have you tried a fundamental Bible believing church service yet
As a child, yes. My parents dragged me there a handful of times and I even went to Sunday school. I know everything I need to know about church to be fair in my judgement of it. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 24 Jun 2008 16:59
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Well there you go, my parents took me at least a few thousand times. You don't go enough for it to take. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 24 Jun 2008 17:24
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I went to church more times than you've watched those vids or read up on what evolution is or says it is(and your church's opinion on it is not a valid source here). __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 24 Jun 2008 17:30
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Point being I bet I know a lot more about the Bible than you do. I mean I've taken in a lot more Bible reading and church going than you have, and maybe if you had you might be more likely to have the same perspective that I have. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 24 Jun 2008 17:36
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My exposure to church and it's various followers is more than enough to make the judgements I have.
Which begs the question of why (as far as I can tell) you're so against even hearing what evolution really is about yet being so against it anyways. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 24 Jun 2008 18:18
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Well think of it this way. In order for me to believe in evolution I'd have to say that every time I prayed about something and it happened I'd have to assume it was just an accident. I've spent a lot of years praying to start believing it didn't do me any good at all. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 24 Jun 2008 18:21
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Quote: I've spent a lot of years praying to start believing it didn't do me any good at all.
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 24 Jun 2008 18:35
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Would that jug of milk be anything like the magic gas that supposedly pre-existed at the beginning of the universe and exploded paving the way for the existence of everything from absolutely nothing?
According to that video studies show prayer doesn't help the sick but I've heard several studies that show the exact opposite.
Here is the biggest thing to keep in mind. Would you be opposed to someone praying for your health?
I can't say everything happens the way I want it to, but I can say that God has helped me go the right direction when going my way would have been completely disastrous.
Prayer is vital to me. I can't imagine going through life not praying. It would be like not having hope. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 25 Jun 2008 00:13
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Quote: I've heard several studies that show the exact opposite.
Me too, I've heard prayer is actually harmful to the sick.
Quote: Would you be opposed to someone praying for your health?
They'd be wasting their time excepting if it makes them feel better. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 02 Jul 2008 02:04
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Quote: Well there you go, my parents took me at least a few thousand times. You don't go enough for it to take.
Quote: Point being I bet I know a lot more about the Bible than you do. I mean I've taken in a lot more Bible reading and church going than you have, and maybe if you had you might be more likely to have the same perspective that I have.
sigh...Tim, I am really trying to help you here. but you have set yourself up with comments like that. I will explain why, and I will probably be more kind to you than Pak will, and definitely more kind than I would have been had you thrown something out like that back when I was in competitive debate.
It's real simple. If I was your opponent on your issue , I would say something like " Not only does repeated exposure to nonsense not make the nonsense true, in might even inoculate the hearer to the truth. We are discussing the objective reality of the situation, not anyones experience or perspective. The fact that you've heard it a lot doesn't make it any more or less true than if you'd never hear it." Of course that argument goes both ways.
(sigh) I really am trying to help. Now, you might make the case that you are more immediately familiar with the actual contents of the Bible than Pak is, or you might even be more well versed in the evidences for special creation,but that really has no bearing on whether or not the things you've seen and read are true. And research has never been your strong point. As Jack Sparrow would say, "Savvy?" __________________
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15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted: 02 Jul 2008 02:16
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By the way Pak, in the first video, the alternatives the narrator cites as other 'theories' (rotation of earth around the sun, gravity)are all currently, empirically observable phenomenon. The rotation of teh earth around the sun is provable with trigonometry, hardly a bias-friendly medium. In fact in all my years of being a science fan, I have yet to hear anyone else refer to 'the theory of gravity'. She is mixing apples and oranges. Evolutionary study is primarily a way to explain and reconstruct events of the past. It's not particularly directly observable and since we are looking to the past, we wind up making assumptions, which are inherently unprovable.
It's like walking into a room with a candle burning and trying to deduce how long it's been burning. You can figure out how much it burns down per hour, but unless you know how tall the candle was to start with, that doesn't help much. Now all you have to do is make assumptions, get enough momentum behind your assumptions and you can force schoolchildren to learn your theory of candle burning at taxpayer expense.
And even better, you can ridicule those who say "What if the candle wasn't as tall as you say it was?" You can sneer "What do you know about candles, anyway?" Pretty sweet racket.
I'm being a little facetious, if that's not obvious. __________________
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15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted: 02 Jul 2008 02:20
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OK, one more thing and then I'll go away for a bit, if you are looking for common ground on this issue, I think we can agree on this, a lot of what is put out as 'proof' for creation is nothing of the sort. There are plenty of folks on my side of the issue who are perfectly willing to interpret evidence in light of their theory (something I am constantly accusing evolutionists of doing). There's a gentleman in glen Rose Texas that does this a lot. And when they do it, I try to call them on it. There is some of that in the video Tim posted. __________________
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15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted: 02 Jul 2008 02:56
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As gracious as ever Preach....
I'm not going to attack Tim for anything anymore as it accomplishes nothing. It is far better to have an enchange of ideas for a wide variety of reasons and possible benefits for all involved than to sit bickering about the subjective ideas of who's 'right' and 'wrong'.
Quote: Not only does repeated exposure to nonsense not make the nonsense true, in might even inoculate the hearer to the truth
I agree completely and was thinking along exactly those lines but I doubtfully could have been so eloquent and you have my respect for it.
Quote: It's like walking into a room with a candle burning and trying to deduce how long it's been burning
My same argument against the proposed age of the earth based on the ages of people in the bible.
Quote: a lot of what is put out as 'proof' for creation is nothing of the sort
Could not agree more with how folks on both sides try to twist in everything imaginable to win an argument instead of getting to the truth which would serve us all.
Perhaps there is a creator and creation did go something like the bible says-I'd have no problem with this except for anything even resembling evidence enough to make it plausible has not surfaced and people who firmly believe it keep going back to the same gimmicks and (pardon) trickery to back up their story. The more this is done and the more it looks like a piece of fiction people are trying to make real just by believing hard enough in it. The more fantastic something is, the greater evidence required-end of story. I can't say there is absolutely not a creator or that creation did not happen as described in the bible but nothing outside of that gimmickry and trickery is being pointed out as 'proof'.
Now the flip side of this debate coin.
We have a theory called evolution which was absolutely unimaginable to even the person who pieced it together. Being a man devoted to God, he knew this flew in the face of what he believed and could actually be dangerous to the general mindset of the masses, not to mention threaten his own personal safety. He gets this abominable work published just the same in an effort to make science just that much more accesible and real to the public.
Here's the thing. Maybe it's too much evidence. Maybe it's all make believe too and some people are finding a way to profit from us believing their fiction. I'd have no problem ignoring this mess if it made less sense. I know about roaches developing an immunity to poisons through their biology which they then pass down to their offspring to aid the survival of that race. Darwin kinda makes sense here but it gets iffy if you can question how an animal or insect would naturally have some defense to a man made chemical, not even all of them either, just a select few. Now Darwin had to have missed something here. I'm fairly sure someone with a better working knowledge of biology or the Origin of Species would give a very pointed and direct response to this and how it is just as Darwin said. Do I just take his word for it or what?
I get both sides of the argument and I get three answers to it.
1) Who gives a shit? Sorry, that's just the way it is. Does this debate even matter? Maybe they're both right, maybe they're both wrong, knock off the bickering and bullshit already. In the grand scheme of things, philosophy is nice and being certain would be nicer but it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme and get over it already.
2)It would be an amazing comfort to believe that somehow all of this had been planned just so I could kick back and not have to take responsibility for my actions or worry about messing anything up. I'm not wired that way but it would seem to be nice just the same.
3) If I have to pick a side, it's gonna be evolution. It makes sense when you hear what it is(to me anyways) and I can actually see some evidence of it, even if that evidence is just taking the c redit for someone else's work. It even sounds good- a meritocracy, survival of the fittest, natural selection-every bit as callous and heartless as mother nature herself, and every bit full of apparent results.
Again, I am not a theologian or scientist. I'm a cabbie from New Jersey. I can't say evolution is gospel anymore than the bible isn't or vice versa. I've been given a choice and that's the bottom line of it. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 02 Jul 2008 13:51
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Quote: Does this debate even matter? Maybe they're both right, maybe they're both wrong, knock off the bickering and bullshit already. In the grand scheme of things, philosophy is nice and being certain would be nicer but it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme and get over it already.
It matters in this very important way, the Bible claims to not only be true in origins, but in every other facet. It claims to not only present the true story of the origin of life, but it also says that there is a God who will hold you accountable for your actions, and who hates sin. Now, if the story of creation isn't trustworthy, why should I believe anything else in there? Why bother with Calvary? Why not just write Jesus off as just another philosopher with a penchant for punnery?
I believe that you cannot subtract from the equation human nature and humanity's state of being in rebellion against our Creator. People don't want to be in submission to the edicts of a holy God so they invent various philososphies to try to dethrone the voice of their own conscience. I believe that rebellious nature tends to create intellectual blindspots, at least I know it did with me. So it actually is a discussion of paramount importance.
Quote: I know about roaches developing an immunity to poisons through their biology which they then pass down to their offspring to aid the survival of that race.
Excellent example, but let me give you the creation viewpoint on that phenenom. Hopefully I can do justice to it. More later. __________________
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15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted: 02 Jul 2008 14:18
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Here we go...
All the gentic varaiances necessary for a species to grow and thrive under a variety of conditions were present at creation. No new informatin has been added. Mutations do not add new information, they merely scramble old information. Contained within each individual is an amazing capacity for genetic variety because for every gene that is expressed, there are scores that are not expressed but still present with the chance of being expressed in future generations.
Let me give you an example. I have 3 kids and one in the oven. We have a blond, a brunette and a redhead. (No word yet in the hair color of number 4) Three different hair colors (not to mention the differences in eye color, facial structure, etc) from the combined genes of two individuals , myself and my lovely bride. The same two sets of 21 chromosones being combined 3 times and producing three different individuals. My blond son has the genes to produce redheaded children, but in him the redhead gene is repressed. My redhead daughter has the capacity to produce blond children or grandchildren or great grandchildren. My bruneete son could produce kids that are redheads or blondes.Now if time and lifespan permitted it, my wife and I could produce children for the next thousand years and no two of the children would be alike.There would be (and is) family resemblance, but only within the limits of what genes are available to be expressed. None of them would be clones of us or each other. Each one would be an example of a different combination of expressed genes from the same set of chromosones.
Now, picture this. There I am with my wife and our thousand years worth of kids hanging around. Environmental conditions change that for some reason are deadly to redheads. A certain percent of my children would not survive. The blonds and brunettes would be fine, but they might have redheaded children who wouldn't survive. Eventually the overall population of redheads would drop down to almost zero, with all newborn redheads not making it to adulthood. But if environmental conditions changed again, the redhead gene still present in my blond and brunette children would be seen in greater number. We didn't evolve out of being redheads, all the redheads just died.
Natural selection is a viable scientific concept. It is observable, and demonstratable. But it does not produce new structures it simply temporarily eliminates individual members of a species whose particular gene expressions aren't favorable. Your roached didnt evolve to becoem resistant to poison, the poison just killed off all the ones who weren't born resistant. If we stopped using the poison, you would see a resurgence in the non-poison-resistant population. __________________
1 TIMOTHY 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
i'm telling you the MOAB will solve all our problems
Worst thing that could happen is somebody might shake your hand.
