Quote: Pro-abortion Democrats control Congress, Nancy Pelosi is House speaker, many disaffected voters are veering left, Hillary Clinton may be the next president – and 34 years after Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court still has a pro-Roe majority. Moreover, since that fateful 1973 ruling, almost 50 million unborn babies have been aborted, and millions of mothers hurt physically, psychologically and spiritually.
So, why are pro-lifers smiling?
They're smiling because a quiet revolution is under way. Although it's not visible from the U.S. Capitol, from the Supreme Court Building or from the White House, it is very visible down "on the street" – at the level of real life where women and girls make the desperate decision to solve their "problem pregnancy" by aborting.
"But abortion is still legal," one might say. Yes, but before the law will change, hearts must change – and a dramatic change-of-heart is taking place big-time, right here, right now. America is turning against abortion:
"Unless drastic changes are made, American women will lose the right to abortion and the [U.S.] Supreme Court won’t be the cause of it ... the reason will be that physicians either can't or won't perform this essential service." – Barbara Radford, former director, National Abortion Federation
"... the greatest threat to abortion rights may no longer be anti-choice judges and politicians, but diminished access to abortion services ..." – Nita Lowey, pro-abortion congresswoman, New York's 18th congressional district
"... the availability of abortions is diminishing because fewer doctors are willing to perform the procedure." – The Washington Post
"Those who run abortion clinics, even in large cities, say that recruiting doctors is now their most serious problem." – The San Francisco Chronicle
"... no doctors want to come and work in abortion clinics. Guess what? No nurses want to come and work in abortion clinics." – Genevieve Grein, manager, Choice Medical Group, Santa Cruz, Calif.
"Abortion is a matter of choice in this country not only for women but for physicians as well. All over the country, most physicians are choosing not to do it …" – American Medical News
Although "top-down" efforts to end abortion continue valiantly – including attempts by several states to mount a direct constitutional challenge to Roe, congressional efforts to restrict abortion, notify parents, inform expectant mothers and the like – the greatest panic to the abortion movement is coming from what's happening at the clinic level.
For example: When pregnant women get out of their cars and walk nervously toward the abortion clinic for their appointment with death, they often encounter a "sidewalk counselor" – a regular person, armed only with love, and with information the abortion clinic absolutely does not want their customer to know. Frequently, after a short conversation, the sidewalk counselor leads the mother away from the abortion clinic and around the corner to a "pregnancy care center." These PCCs are sprouting up all over America, just as fast as abortion clinics are disappearing. And within many of those pregnancy care centers are the new "4D" ultrasound machines. When the abortion client lies down and experiences, for the first time, the reality of her unborn baby – and not a grainy, difficult-to-see old-fashioned sonogram, but a modern, crystal-clear image of her own baby – she does not go through with the planned abortion in the vast majority of cases.
That's just one of many revolutionary assaults on the "right to abortion" – considered by many constitutional scholars to be uncannily similar to early America's "right to slavery."
Meanwhile, there are many other battle fronts, such as abstinence programs in the nation's schools, reporting stunning success. And legions of bright, young, specially trained lawyers are preparing to defend women and to sue abortionists and their clinics, including Planned Parenthood.
All this in a climate in which repeated national polls reveal only one in four Americans agrees with unfettered abortion-on-demand as permitted by Roe v. Wade. A few years ago, America had about 2,000 abortion clinics; today there are fewer than 800. Physicians are forsaking the practice in droves.
Bottom line: Americans, especially the younger generation, are increasingly repulsed by abortion.
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"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 13 Jan 2009 21:45
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But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 14 Jan 2009 15:58
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Anybody with a brain should be able to use birth control or abstain from sex instead of relying on having a doctor reach into the womb and pull out a human being.
Your video pak is moronic I'm sorry to say. Sounds like he's saying that because God has a plan for all of our lives that it somehow excuses humans from the bad choices they make like murder.
Perhaps the truth is God is really ticked off that so many babies will never fulfill the plan he has for their lives because some idiotic doctor needed a paycheck and nobody took the time to explain to a teenager the facts of life. Like what happens if you have sex before being married. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 14 Jan 2009 17:46
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One day we'll hopefully be able to make all abortions illegal. Lets pray that day isn't too far into the future. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 00:11
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Quote: Your video pak is moronic I'm sorry to say.
1)You're not sorry to say it. 2)It's not moronic just because you disagree. If it's 'God's plan' when and how everyone is born or dies, then God is responsible for babies born from rape as He sees fit and is equally responsible for every fetus that is aborted whether by a doctor or miscarriage. This is along the same lines as when you thanked Him for helping you quit smoking but could not even consider for a second that it was His fault you started in the first place(neglecting the severe difference of topics of course and keeping in mind I'm not saying He's real either). You can't have it both ways. Either the Bible is God's word or it isn't, and that word is infallible or it isn't. There's no grey area in either. I do like how you've come around on birth control and hope you can find it in your heart to allow unmarrieds to use those products.
Quote: One day we'll hopefully be able to make all abortions illegal.
Yes, Steve. How wonderful and bright that future would be. Then you can drive up the price and make it more dangerous. Driving it towards back alleys doesn't make it go away. There are those nightmare stories of what kids will do(even the adults unfortunately) when they don't have a doctor to see, of having someone beat them up to kill it, throwing themselves down flights of stairs, experimenting with wire hangers or even vaccuum attachments. Then of course if the baby actually makes it to seeing daylight, they can be attempted to be flushed down the toilet in some special cases if they're small enough, tossed in a dumpster with or without being smothered first or just flat out abandoned in a gas station, public rest room, church or hospital. There was the wonderful recent story of a girl who let her baby die in her closet while she was at school, and according to her the baby was hidden there just so her mom wouldn't find out she was pregnant in the first place. These are the type of people you want to help ensure that they carry children to full term. What's your logic exactly? You can't tell me it stems from anything outside a faith based issue(especially that bogus 'all life is sacred' excuse you've given before), so I'll repeat a question you or Tim never seem able to answer. Why should our entire society, including non-Christians, be forced to live under a Christian standard?
You're going to want to tell me I'm over-reacting or maing all those stories up as some sort of tactic and that it never happens like that-you'd be wrong. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 00:21
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Quote: Driving it towards back alleys doesn't make it go away.
Illegalizing murder doesn't make it go away either, but its still a crime.
Quote: Then you can drive up the price and make it more dangerous.
How does that make it more dangerous? i rather it be done illegally then have the government put a stamp of approval on murder. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 00:28
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Quote: Illegalizing murder doesn't make it go away either, but its still a crime.
Right. Your point?
Quote: How does that make it more dangerous?
Back room doctors make automatically for less skilled, less qualified doctors. A woman who goes to one of these probably isn't checking qualifications on the wall before resorting to the procedure.
Quote: i rather it be done illegally
That makes you something of a monster and destroys the credibility of your statements on the 'sanctity of life'. Your 'concern' for the baby is bullshit Steve, face it. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 00:51
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Quote: Your 'concern' for the baby is bullshit Steve, face it.
Listen you, I'm a Christian and I have genuine concern for the kid, and I think you know that. I can't stop it from being done completely, but making it illegal is sure as heck going to decrease the abortion rate. Plus, the United States is too great a country to be allowing murder. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 01:00
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Quote: making it illegal is sure as heck going to decrease the abortion rate.
I actually wish this were true. It's not. Taking away the legal option simply forces unwilling mothers-to-be to do desperate and destructive things as a means to the same end.
Ask yourself this. If abortions would have stopped at all because the legal options were not available, would Roe V. Wade have EVER passed muh less been upheld all this time?
Quote: the United States is too great a country to be allowing murder.
Unless you're running for office, please save the fake and unnecessary 'patriotism'. The same platitude can be said of how great the country is because women -have- this legal right(which is actually more on the money, but I wouldn't say this voluntarily myself under any other circumstance as I'm not running for office either).
I do take issue also with it being called murder, but that's just one of those things we'll probably not see eye to eye on. We can discuss that if you like though, let me know. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 18:07
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Quote: This is along the same lines as when you thanked Him for helping you quit smoking but could not even consider for a second that it was His fault you started in the first place(neglecting the severe difference of topics of course and keeping in mind I'm not saying He's real either).
If I followed that logic I'd blame God for every mistake I made and would never have any personal accountability for my own actions.
The problem with abortion is plain. It's murder. You can't blame God for what a murderer does. Do you think it's ok to kill babies because they aren't capable of defending themselves or voting yet? __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 19:47
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Yesterday you probably noticed that I ignored most of your comments and I only replied to a few of them. That was because I was short on time. Now I'm going to answer all of them.
Quote: Why should our entire society, including non-Christians, be forced to live under a Christian standard?
You said under the morality is breakfast thread that atheists have morals and have their own version of right and wrong. You also know a good bit about science and that the unborn baby is alive. So consider the following:
1. Murder is wrong.
2. The baby is alive.
These two things bring you to the conclusion:
Abortion is wrong.
You don't have to be a Christian to think that.
Quote: Right. Your point?
You're making the case that making abortion illegal will not make it go away so don't bother getting rid of it. So I could make the case that murder or theft shoudln't be illegal because you can't get rid of it.
Quote: Taking away the legal option simply forces unwilling mothers-to-be to do desperate and destructive things as a means to the same end.
What about you Pak? Lets say you want something. But the law prevents it. Are you going to go around the law and get it anyway, or will you abide by the law, and forget about it?
Quote: If abortions would have stopped at all because the legal options were not available, would Roe V. Wade have EVER passed muh less been upheld all this time?
Without legal options there were less abortions. Roe v. Wade increased the abortion rate.
Quote: Unless you're running for office, please save the fake and unnecessary 'patriotism'.
What? Didn't I tell you guys? I'm running in 2012. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 20:07
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Quote: 1. Murder is wrong.
2. The baby is alive.
One problem. It's not a baby yet. Second problem. It can't exist outside of the womb for the time period that Roe V Wade covers. Your oversimplified argument just shriveled up. You also dodged answering why non-Christians have to live under any form of Christian standard, yet again.
Quote: So I could make the case that murder or theft shoudln't be illegal because you can't get rid of it.
Are there times when murder is justified? Yes. Same for theft? No. Sweeping theft into pile from last quote as it doesn't belong. As for the murder portion, there are punishments there to deter people from doing it when it is not justified, the same as abortion. Your case is silly and dismissed.
Quote: Lets say you want something. But the law prevents it.
Let's say this also doesn't apply unless you think I have the magical ability to get pregnant and won't want the baby. Word games don't alter reality. They don't take away history. They don't change people. Stop trying to weave in and out of the conversation just to score some sort of twisted 'win'.
Quote: Without legal options there were less abortions. Roe v. Wade increased the abortion rate.
I won't insult you on this. Just stop and think about how many were reported in each instance and maybe you'll realize why the numbers are so different.
What a load of drivel Steve. I'm disappointed. Seriously. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 20:23
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Quote: The problem with abortion is plain. It's murder.
So is the death penalty, but I hear nothing about opposing that from you.
So are all our war efforts, but I hear nothing about opposing that either.
What I do hear on occasion is how need your guns and nobody better take em away. You apparently have no problems with taking the life of an animal or another human if need be yourself.
You hopping on a soapbox about murder is not exactly the stunning argument you might think it is Tim. Sorry. It's also another fine example of oversimplifying something.
--------------------------------------------------
Abortion is a very volatile subject to say the least. It's no better to just equate the totality of it to plain and simple murder than it is to praise offing the little nuisances these evil women must think they are.
Here's the basic truth of it. There are times when an abortion is either flat out necessary or even morally correct. I'm not saying either one is a majority, just that there are times when these are the actual scenarios. In those specific cases when it is a necessity or is the most proper path, that option should be left available to the needy party and not be completely impossible just because you and your holy circus frown on it. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 20:29 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers
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Quote: One problem. It's not a baby yet. Second problem.
But it contains all the criteria needed for human life.
Quote: You also dodged answering why non-Christians have to live under any form of Christian standard, yet again.
No I answered the question.
Quote: Let's say this also doesn't apply unless you think I have the magical ability to get pregnant and won't want the baby. Word games don't alter reality. They don't take away history. They don't change people. Stop trying to weave in and out of the conversation just to score some sort of twisted 'win'.
You know what I mean here, but you are avoiding answering my question. You're making it sound like a woman would be willing to do whatever it takes to get an abortion, even if it means breaking the law. So do you really think they have such low respect for the law?
You're indicating that when people really want to something, they will get it rather or not is wrong--in this case, "wrong" means against the law. This makes me think of when we discussed the morality issue in other thread when you said people don't need God to fight temptation. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 20:38 Last Edited By: Steve Rogers
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Quote: Are there times when murder is justified?
No. Killing yes. When the case is self-defense its not murder, its just called killing. Abortion is not killing but murder when the mother just simply doesn't want the child. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 15 Jan 2009 21:08
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Quote: But it contains all the criteria needed for human life.
Born vs unborn. There is a difference.
Quote: No I answered the question.
Maybe I missed it. The question was:
Quote: why non-Christians have to live under any form of Christian standard
Show me the answer to that and that alone, instead of trying to use the strawman of the morality thread to go around the actual question.
Quote: You're making it sound like a woman would be willing to do whatever it takes to get an abortion, even if it means breaking the law.
and you're trying to make that the case for every woman and every abortion by all appearances. In those particular cases when a woman has tortured herself into believing that that preganancy must end, if no legal or safe means appear visible, they will simply find a way, whatever way gets it done and damn the consequences. Welcome to the real world Steve-it's unpleasant and messy sometimes.
Quote: You're indicating that when people really want to something,
Again with this oversimplification? Just stop, please. We're talking about a woman deciding to end the life growing inside of her, a 'murder' as you take delight in calling it, and now you want to equate it to simple temptation? ffs, come on, seriously.
Quote: When the case is self-defense its not murder, its just called killing.
And when you strap someone in the electric chair it's not self-defense, it's justified homicide- a necessary murder.
And when you kill the guy in the enemy uniform, that's not self-defense either, that's just how wars go, with justified (and as I think about Israel, not so justified) murder.
People kill when killing needs to be done. There are laws which tell us how and when that killing is permissable without consequence. Those laws pertain to self defense as much as they pertain to the death penalty and war and abortion.
You really want to save some lives? Help find a way to end the poverty problem so people won't do crimes which would call for self defense in the first place.
Help find a way for our government to stop playing world police at the whim of our central banking system. Help figure a way for young people to get a proper education about sexual activity and sexual health instead of the wishful thinking failure known as abstinence only programs so they don't get pregnant in the first place.
Wishing away abortions won't stop them from happening-that is simply a fantasy. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 19 Jan 2009 03:42
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Quote: And when you strap someone in the electric chair it's not self-defense, it's justified homicide- a necessary murder.
And you wanna give the poor little kid the death penalty. Right?
Quote: Show me the answer to that and that alone, instead of trying to use the strawman of the morality thread to go around the actual question.
My answer was that you don't have to be a christian to disagree with murder, as well as believe that the unborn child is alive.
Quote: People kill when killing needs to be done.
Does the child need to be killed?
Quote: Wishing away abortions won't stop them from happening-that is simply a fantasy.
No but we can sure as heck fight abortion. Outlaw it and then we're getting somewhere. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 19 Jan 2009 13:03
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Quote: And you wanna give the poor little kid the death penalty
It's not a kid yet, nor is it alive yet to give it a death penalty. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 19 Jan 2009 13:08
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Hit post by accident before completing, apologies.
Quote: My answer was that you don't have to be a christian to disagree with murder, as well as believe that the unborn child is alive.
My question was why anyone has to live under Christian standards when they are not a Christian-the standard in question is calling that murder exclusively. Not everyone shares that viewpoint.
Secondly, 'the unborn child is alive' is a contradiction of terms.
Quote: Does the child need to be killed?
Even though you keep loading the question with your killing the unborn platform, the answer is obviously yes. Sometimes they gotta go.
Quote: Outlaw it and then we're getting somewhere.
Another thing I'm getting tired of repeating- outlawing it won't end it. Put that fantasy to rest already. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 19 Jan 2009 15:33
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Quote: Another thing I'm getting tired of repeating- outlawing it won't end it. Put that fantasy to rest already.
Did I say end it? No I didn't! I said we'd be getting somewhere. As I've said several times, outlawing abortion will decrease the abortion rate.
Quote: It's not a kid yet, nor is it alive yet to give it a death penalty.
It appears that we are putting our entire argument on this one issue, so we need to focus on that first. "Is the unborn child alive?" That way we can settle this. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 19 Jan 2009 17:36
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I don't understand how a person can say a baby that's not born is not a real baby. Like the only criteria for life is being on the outside of the womb. If that were true then you couldn't get a murder rap for causing a woman to lose her unborn child in a crime. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 19 Jan 2009 21:43
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Quote: I don't understand how a person can say a baby that's not born is not a real baby.
Unborn = not born yet. Simple, yes? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 19 Jan 2009 23:03
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Quote: If that were true then you couldn't get a murder rap for causing a woman to lose her unborn child in a crime.
Hey that's a good point. When you murder a pregnant woman, you get charged with the murder of the child as well. __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 19 Jan 2009 23:27
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Neither the future or well-being of the woman or the child she was carrying (which she intended to have apparently) were the murderer's to have any say over. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 19 Jan 2009 23:52
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So if somebody else kills it, its murder, but if she kills it, its justified. Is that right? __________________
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
- Ronald Reagan
Posted: 20 Jan 2009 02:49
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It's her responsibility and right to know the difference between the default of that baby deserving to go through the entire process of getting born or not to the unfortunate and difficult decision of terminating the pregnancy. It's not up to your hypothetical murderer, me or you, nor should it be. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Jan 2009 10:22
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And now for the part of the show where we make a long story very short.
On YouTube there is a user named 'TheAmazingAtheist' which I'm sure you guys could care less about. In any case, the guy has a ton of subscribers. He went and made his own forum site, kinda similar to this one, with several extra features you should probably take a look at Tim.(not the least of which is a chatroom-hint hint)
I won't twist anyone's arm here, but there is a pretty interesting debate over there about abortion. I will post the link to the forum but I believe you have to be a member to view it. I know you'll probably be more than a little reticent to go to such a place as 'theamazingatheist's website, but be rest assured that there is actually an interesting mix of Christians and Buddhists and Deists there as well.
My handle is the same there as it is here and I hope you guys take a look. Let me know. __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 20 Jan 2009 15:51
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Abortion is a lot more simple to me as it pertains to 99 percent of the cases involving abortion. If you don't want a baby either don't have sex or take birth control. If you can't follow those simple instructions then you need to put the baby up for adoption. Don't kill the baby because you are either irresponsible, or an idiot. I know we are all idiots at times, but that doesn't excuse us of the consequences. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009 16:29
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Quote: 99 percent of the cases involving abortion.
Source? __________________
But the backdrops peel and the sets give way and the cast get eaten by the play, there's a murderer at the matinee, there are dead men in the aisles
And the patrons and the actors too are uncertain if the show is through and with sidelong looks await their cue, but the frozen mask just smiles
Posted: 21 Jan 2009 17:19
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Wild guess.
Think about it for a second. There couldn't be that many abortions performed for cases of incest and rape. That's something the left loves to throw out there so we ignore the real reason for the majority of abortions which is as birth control.
Notice the left never says let's just allow abortion for incest and rape. That's never on the table. Somehow in their minds there is either all or nothing. So if they have no distinction between abortion for birth control or abortion for rape or incest then they shouldn't bring it up.
Mind you I'm not saying I automatically think abortion is ok for these cases, but I can understand the logic behind abortion in a rape case. I can't understand the logic of abortion as a means of birth control. __________________
Lucas McCain the Rifleman: A man doesn't run from a fight, Mark...but that doesn't mean you should go running *to* one, either.
